Unlabelled Destiny 2 This Week at Bungie - 3/29/2018

3/31/2018 12:35:00 am
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Destiny 2 This Week at Bungie - 3/29/2018

This Week at Bungie - 3/29/2018

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 03:58 PM PDT

Only in Destiny 2

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 07:39 AM PDT

Kronk doesn't understand how New Monarchy won

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 03:00 PM PDT

Counterpoint: TTK won't solve teamshooting instantly. because the latter is inherent in a Psychological setting

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 04:07 AM PDT

This is a theory I've had for quite some time when PVP discussions are mentioned - especially how I feel that 4v4 changed the dynamic so much due to our previous feedback of how awesome and competitive high-end pvp activities were in the first game.

While I know that TTK does play a role in a perceived 'individual-capability', it would still fall in-line with the inherent 'group-vs.individual role' mentality.

And psychology plays a key role in these dynamics - from old theories about collectivism versus individualism, to cultural differences that make us more reliant on group dynamics, to greater autonomy and uniqueness among individuals, to simply having a lone wolf mentality, or even the concept of Proxemics and personal space. Or in the simplest terms it can be the Fight-or-Flight response.

That's a lot to digest! So let me add more details (and headaches and snores!)

Video games provide us with fun and enjoyment, while also giving us an escape from the realities of life.

It means that if we feel life is constrained, the virtual world gives us a vast, new world to explore, with open spaces where we can find ourselves, or feel unique in our own way.

This idea permeates in many games - for instance:

  • If playing a MOBA, you might have someone who likes jungling and going on his own rather than having two people in the same lane; or that same person might be too far away to engage in a team fight
  • If a Tier List is released for a fighting game or a strategy game, people would seek to try out characters, heroes, or Civs, that are not as good, looking to make something good out of them
  • If a shooting game has 32 vs. 32 people fighting each other, you might see some odds and ends of people avoiding a massed effort by a team, instead preferring to sneak on the flanks and get kills while people are distracted

It simply means that people try to avoid directly following the group because they feel that there are inherent rewards to independently striking out on their own.

Or they are averse to the latter because a direct head-to-head conflict would be disadvantageous.

There are a couple of direct examples I can provide:

(1) In coop games, for instance Vermintide 2 which I'm playing now, you might see players who rush off on their own, or pull/attack faraway enemies to get some extra kills.

(2) In a MOBA, when you see multiple opponents approaching your lane, or even just a lone hero, you're averse to striking out immediately (unless you're very aggressive or harassing). You're probably going to click your mouse back and forth, avoiding conflict, while backup arrives.

(3) Perhaps the most famous one - Leeroy Jenkins heading out on his own against something meticulously planned, causing a wipe in Blackrock Spire.

Those dynamics in many games exist because, in a fraction of a second, the brain rationalizes your actions of whether you should do something or not, and the rewards you may get from it. Or in Leeroy's case... chicken.

DESTINY APPLICATION:

In Destiny 1:

  • You had a 6v6 environment, and you had a couple of people sticking together (ie. premades), and there are randoms/blueberries running around on their own ("OMG! DON'T SWITCH SPAWNS!")
  • While this goes on for -your- team, the same processes would go on in the minds of your opposing team - some would stick together, others would branch out

The process replays over and over in many games - regardless of TTK, and regardless of the meta.

One can even cite an inherent desire for a wide-open space, or individualist goals - to be out there and promote our own capability.

See four teammates rushing off to cap B? Well, "That's going to get crowded, how am I going to get any kills? You know what, I'm heading to C!".

You might end up going against three people from the opposing team heading to C, which means you're easy fodder for them. Meanwhile, your sixth teammate who also went solo, saw that you had that area covered, which means he ended up flanking and got three kills from the opposing team (while you distracted them).

There are more players, and there are more psychological processes involved, which also means more decisions on sticking together or going off on your own.

And most importantly, more chances of people 'Leeroy-ing' on their own and you picking up the kills.

Transition:

In Destiny 1, some of the most watched streams/videos have been of the competitive nature - awesome PVP players making great plays, while also carrying people on Trials.

The idea that many streamers and viewers had was that small-teams tactics emphasized by Trials and Competitive was a great way to showcase individual skill with a strong emphasis on group dynamics and teamwork.

This usually meant two teammates sticking together, and one flanking, or all three sticking together; and the same decision-making processes happen for the other team.

This is why you'd hear 'nailbiting' moments of 1v3's or a flanker being called: "Back up, get back!" - as he rushes back to his teammates.

  • Yes, even those who use the meta weapons with the fastest TTK's would probably back down if facing superior firepower from people who also used those meta weapons with the fastest TTK's... more often than not.

Regardless of the TTK, and regardless of the meta - small-teams tactics emphasized the group dynamic > individual skill. There are fewer moments where one person triumphed against the group, compared to the group triumphing against scattered people.

Note: This is the inherent 'power fantasy' and 'hero moments' argument - it's not tied to primary TTK per se, but more with OHKO abilities like grenades and supers, or heavy weapons, which are more game-changing than simply '1v1 primary fights'.

Destiny 2:

The biggest problem Bungie made with this case is overestimating the value placed by players on this dynamic.

True - a lot of viewers loved the sweaty and competitive nature of pvp, but it also did not mean that it should revolve around that 'sweaty and competitive' nature.

This is why you'd often see posts like: "The e-Sport experiment has failed" - because the belief is, since a lot of people watched competitive streams, it would be the best direction to go for the sequel.

Now what you have in the game, due to smaller teams (4v4 instead of 6v6) - is the occurrence of fewer psychological processes, fewer decision-making moments.

It becomes ingrained that, much like Trials and Competitive in D1, you're going to need to stick with your team to survive (again, regardless of TTK, and regardless of the meta).

Because the map design, as many have pointed out, is a lot smaller or more cramped than D1 (since the sequel has it designed for 'small-teams tactics') - you're less likely to strike out on your own since there's no 'wide open space round the corner... the next corner has another corner... and who knows what might be lurking there?"

Leeroy will probably think twice about going against the plan because there are fewer people around who can provide backup, and the risk of ending up in an outnumbered situation is very plausible.

Map Comparison:

Destiny 1 maps

Destiny 2 maps

Notice the difference in design for a 4v4 versus a 6v6 layout?

In Destiny 1, the crampiest map I could remember was The Anomaly, and even then, you'd have firefights going on constantly for "B".

In Destiny 2, even maps with wider layouts like Dead Cliffs and Altar of Flame also had cramped spaces scattered around.

The design for small-teams-tactics means that you're less likely to strike out on your own because of numerous ways that you can get annihilated from various nooks and crannies (again, regardless of TTK or the meta).

That fight-or-flight decision may easily point to the latter simply because you are unsure of possible rewards you'd get for the former since you cannot easily view any opponents committing to certain errors.

I can relate - as a Sniper:

Decades ago, I used to play shooter games competitively (Counter-Strike 1.1 to 1.3) even participating and winning local tournaments. I snipe... a lot.

I haven't played shooters competitively in a long time, but when I picked up Destiny 1, I was quite happy with the Crucible maps and the Vanilla meta... and boy, did I snipe a lot.

I had a K/D of around 2.0 to 2.2 back then, and had a stat of the top 1% in Kill Distance. This was because I used my opponents' mistakes to my advantage.

  • Open maps, me with a sniper, people trying to go at it alone since other parts of the map were crowded? Boom - headshot.
  • Open maps, me with a sniper, people engaging in a firefight and being distracted? Boom - headshot.
  • Slightly crampier maps, me with a sniper, find a more open space and see someone crossing? Boom - headshot.

I loved my Praedyth's Revenge because of that.

And when the meta shifted and the maps changed, I also found it to adjust - there were now more corners, more nooks and crannies, more ways I could get flanked - and because it was 6v6, there would be multiple people who decide on flanking than sticking together. And I got even worse in Destiny 2 since I could not adapt from the D1/Y1 Vanilla meta I was used to.

So in closing:

I believe it's more of a psychological reaction we have with regards to pvp, competitive games - or rather, any game for that matter.

Those who are averse to sticking with the group do so because they feel there are more inherent rewards in doing so. But if the game's design is to push you into wondering if the rewards are not worth the risk, then you're likely to make that decision.

And because there are fewer players in your team, there's a closer-knit group since you will eventually need to rely on them - you're likely to be in proximity to them; as opposed to the previous game where if you scatter, you'll probably find a teammate just some distance away (because there are more players in your team).

TTK and the meta change every now and then - but they merely affect individual choice or adaptation. The issue with teamshooting is more ingrained Psychologically than simple numerical values.

This is also why, in a previous topic, I mentioned Mayhem as a good example in relation to this phenomenon, and why the current patch provided good changes in the right direction (even though a lot of things still need to be done to fully improve the game).

The weeks when Mayhem was active back in December: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 - practically alleviated the concerns about 'hero moments', and 'power fantasy' - because even in tight corners and outnumbered situations, you can still make a difference. It was universally acclaimed as so much fun and enjoyable, that people essentially forgot about 'primary TTK' and 'the meta' - and the biggest concern was simply Nova Bomb abuse.

TL;DR:

Destiny 1's 6v6 system allowed for more scattering around and decision-making processes. Destiny 2's 4v4 system had fewer of that simply due to having fewer players involved. Community emphasis on trials and competition in the first game led to having a wacky mix of that plus casual play in 4v4.

Those who did exceptionally well (or watched people do exceptionally well) in these situations in the first game did so more because of their (a) character abilities - melee, grenade, super, and (b) heavy weapons, as opposed to (c) 1v1 fights with primaries. The 'hero moment' and 'power fantasy' scenarios existed mostly because of (a) and (b), and were inconsequential in (c).

Primary TTK plays more of a role in individual choice and the notion that it can improve your capability in a 1v1, but it is less decisive than actual OHKO capabilities that turn the tide of a match. The reason some people emphasize it is because of the idea that it automatically means "I can make a difference!" - when the reality in the first game was that 'you made more of a difference with your supers and heavies'.

Simply put - the emphasis on primary TTK is more on the individual, and not necessarily to 'change the game's landscape'. Reliance on primary TTK for 1v1 fights was more or less to gauge individual competency, or the players perception of his own skill (ie. 'individual skill', 'skill gap').

This is why people who emphasize 'primary TTK' are also some of the most skilled in the game (ie. streamers) - because they feel that their skill is being diminished by getting bopped by teamshots, heavies, or supers... while also relying on those same factors to make great plays and moments in the first game. (Ironic)

ie. An internalized thought would be: "Primary TTK causes an issue with skill gap, and even though I'm very skilled, I'm getting cheaply killed by players whom I 'perceive' as not-as-skilled as I am because they stick with teammates or they rely too much on supers/heavies. You know what, I miss Destiny 1 where I was able to show my skill while also sticking with my team, and having hero moments with my supers/heavies.

That doesn't mean TTK is NOT important, it still needs to be addressed - however - I don't think that it is the 'be-all-end-all' as some may consider it, because Psychological and realistic factors override it.

Psychology plays a huge role in determining the decisions we make within fractions of a second - whether we stick with a group, or go on our own, or back-up a bit due to a threat; and this is mostly due to a group dynamic or the proximity of an ally (ie. more players in a team), as opposed to TTK values or gun metas.

Destiny going into 6v6 will show how much the teamshot meta would still be plausible - because the sheer number of Guardians in a space would mean it would literally push people out so they can branch out on their own.

Side Note on Individualism or Uniqueness:

This principle also plays a role in the way people view their loot.

You might see comments like: "I know this gun is mine", "I know I put effort into getting it", "This makes my weapon unique."

These comments crop up in discussions about random rolls vs. fixed rolls.

There's an irony to this - because no matter how many possible rolls a gun could have, there were very few weapons, and even fewer perk combinations, that would make it the most desirable 'god roll'.

This means that if you view something as uniquely your own (a 'god roll') - it also means that it is something that others actively chase - which makes it less unique or 'individual' since everyone who chases god rolls could end up having that.

God-rolls had a very artificial and 'static' grind - you did the same things over and over hoping for RNG to give you that reward; but at the same time, even though we all KNOW that the grind was artificial and somewhat boring and repetitive - we knew that the reward was an achievement in itself.

This meant that we viewed the repetitiveness as 'depth' because it gave us a 'carrot to chase' - not that it's 'unique', but because it was what everyone aspired to have.

Instead, rather than focusing on the individualist/uniqueness of a gun, the focus should simply be on endgame depth and content. What 'should' we grind for if it's too easy to obtain some awesome weapons like Mida, Uriels, Antiope, Positive Outlook, Mannanan, Better Devils, Last Hope, or Quickfang?

As usual, these are just my thoughts on the matter.

Thanks for reading.

Cheers, Guardians!

-- EL2

submitted by /u/el2mador
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Is it just me or are Destiny players becoming super salty?...

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 07:03 AM PDT

Every pvp match I get at least one message with people crying about losing or basically harassing me for playing the objective... Makes me laugh every time 😂

submitted by /u/BadAgnostic
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So....I completed the meme....

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 11:03 PM PDT

Dang even Xur is dropping into fortnite!!

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 06:46 PM PDT

Has anyone every been killed by a Tractor Cannon?

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 07:23 AM PDT

Just curious if ANYONE has been killed in the crucible with this 'gun'? I've been thinking about giving it a go but not sure I am good enough to pull off a kill with it. Just think it'd be funny in the kill feed.

submitted by /u/DSM2013
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Tips for better noghtfall score?

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 06:19 AM PDT

I will admit i'm having trouble finishing nightfall with more than 30,000 ish points. I have only done prestige a couple times. Not sure how much score factors into the specific drops, but what are you high scoring guys doing as far as burns and handicaps on prestige, or even strategies for regular? Any tips are appreciated

submitted by /u/mookie41
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Destiny 2 | Last Perdition Pulse | GamePlay

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 05:46 AM PDT

Is leaving a PvP match mid-game punishable now?

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 07:39 AM PDT

As indicated in the title, I wanted to know if there were consequences in place for dropping a match mid-game.

I knew that Bungie said they would add it, but I'm not sure if it has been added in the last patch or not.

I admit that I've been guilty of dropping a game here and there. Facing a stacked team of flawless when queuing solo is frustration incarnate.

submitted by /u/Virtues_Hope
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D2 is back! (At least for me)

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 12:09 AM PDT

I never had so much fun in D2 until now. Trying to get the new nightfall rewards is plenty of fun and the crucible is amazing. It's so fun to have a new meta and me and my friends are trying to find what are the best builds. I thing D2 is in the right direction.

submitted by /u/bazadom333
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How is the raid experience post 1.1.4?

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 02:35 AM PDT

With the sandbox changes, how does raiding (specifically Eater of Worlds) feel in comparison to before the patch?

Easier to do damage with the weapon buffs? More control due to cooldown increase? etc

submitted by /u/Antmarch123
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Heading back to D2 this weekend after reading positive things of update...but...

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 10:31 AM PDT

I swear to god...if random rolls on loot returns I'm returning this. It was one of the most frustrating and bullshit things in the original for me. I never understand the appeal of grinding for hours, days, or weeks to get usable weapon. I am an avid D3: RoS player, too, and while seeing legendary and set items drop is fun, I have not replaced a piece of equipment in over a year even though there are better pieces out there in the drop pool.

I remember people bitching CONSTANTLY about not getting the weapon with the stats they needed. I just see it as another thing for people to complain about and then talk about how "awesome" they are for having finally gotten a perfect version, then talk down to people who bought one from Xur since they didn't "earn it", or don't have the perfect roll.

 

tl;dr If update is good, then I'm happy, but if updates bring back random pools I will quit D2 just as I did D1.

submitted by /u/croidhubh
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Unpopular Opinions Below

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 10:30 AM PDT

Hey all, just wanted to get a few of my more unpopular opinions off my chest as both a destiny 1 vet, and someone who enjoys destiny 2 and hasn't stopped since launch. Feel free to give me your own opinion, even if I think it's incredibly wrong.

1) The current weapon slot system is great, unless you have not caught on (either by not playing much, or willfully not learning) to how the system works best.

2) 8 man rumble is awesome. It's pure sweaty chaos that needs to stay that way. Sure mayhem is chaos too, BUT in a wholly different way.

3) Ttk in crucible is fine where it is. At this point lowering the time to kill won't stop team shooting, it will make it worse as you will have no chance at all to fight or flee if you don't strike first at the start of the match. Not to mention I prefer not dying instantly.

4) the game isn't dead, and streamers don't matter. Simple as that. And on a personal note, slayerage and datto just seem like whiny brats to me.

5) random rolls are crap, it's not a deal breaker if they come back but it's close. In destiny 1, I despised random rolls to the point where I stopped trying to care what weapons I got.

And 6) DTG is the loud minority, and should just go away, and that their loud complaints from D1, are the reason things changed as they did for D2.

That's all folks, what are your thoughts?

submitted by /u/KameronDarkwood
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Has anyone's loadout significantly changed since the update?

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 10:23 AM PDT

I first want to say that I am for sure on the good first step Bungie train. They did good this time but I firmly believe that we have a bit of road ahead of us yet. That's not what I want to talk about though.

Since the update I've been fooling around with different loadouts and play styles and honestly I keep coming back to what I had pre-patch(with one gun change). Now my old load was: Antiope Null Calamity Saint XIV shotgun

Post patch exactly the same but switched null calamity for last perdition(will probably do inaugural address when I finally get it)

I've tried basically every weapon class in different slots but I just can't find a better fit for my playstyle. Is anyone else having a similar issue? I even tried to switch to vigilance wing for my primary but can't find a comfortable short to midrange weapon to replace antiope for that role.

submitted by /u/frozenskull
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Is this game worth picking up again after the new update

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 10:08 AM PDT

I had the game on Xbox and quit about 2 months after release and I have since started pc gaming and the game is in sale and I am just wondering if it is worth picking up now

submitted by /u/Fiery_Knight-
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Anyone have a "Mod availability" chart for each class & equip slot?

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 10:07 AM PDT

Now that the META is changing, I'm experimenting with different builds.

I'd like to know which mods are available for which gear type, per class.

I know that there are spreadsheets and stuff somewhere, I just don't know where.

I'll keep searching in the meantime. I remember seeing a pretty good one on Reddit a few months ago.

submitted by /u/Virtues_Hope
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Trials of the nine rewards

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 10:02 AM PDT

Does anyone know what the trials rewards are this week? I only need the cloack

submitted by /u/broadsword9402
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Xur?

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 10:02 AM PDT

not played in a couple months just wondering where he is

submitted by /u/ZezusAFK
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Crota's End Timelapse

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 10:00 AM PDT

Which class to pick ?

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 05:56 AM PDT

I just got D2, 'cuz it was on promo. I made the three classes and did the tutorial (prologue) in all three. But i can't decide which one i wanna focus. Can you guys give me some pros and cons ? I've been searching on google, but there is nothing "special".

submitted by /u/Saigofu
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Hit 'em with the footwork

Posted: 30 Mar 2018 09:26 AM PDT

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