Unlabelled Super Smash Bros - Daily Discussion Thread 01/23/18

1/24/2018 01:10:00 pm
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Super Smash Bros - Daily Discussion Thread 01/23/18

Daily Discussion Thread 01/23/18

Posted: 22 Jan 2018 11:09 PM PST

Welcome to the Daily Discussion Thread series on /r/smashbros! Inspired by /r/SSBM and /r/hiphopheads's DDTs, you can post here:

  • General questions about Smash

  • General discussion (tentatively allowing for some off-topic discussion)

  • "Light" content that might not have been allowed as its own post (please keep it about Smash)

Other guidelines:

  • Be good to one another.

  • While DDT can be lax, please abide by our general rules. No linking to illegal/pirated stuff, no flaming, game debates, etc.

  • Please keep your meme spam contained to the sticky comment provided below.

If you have any suggestions about future DDTs or anything else subreddit related, please send them our way! Thanks in advance!

Also, if you want to chat with other /r/smashbros users you can do so via our Discord channel.

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Plup Your Enthusiasm

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 09:47 AM PST

Chillindude and ChellyToms had their items stolen in SoCal. They need our help

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 12:23 PM PST

https://twitter.com/LiquidChillin/status/955896799536951296

Donate what you can, and also make sure to retweet and share!

submitted by /u/iamPnDa
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I caught the Mang0 medal at Genesis 5! Looking for any crowd pics/vids from the award ceremony so I can relive the hype. Thanks!!

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 11:48 AM PST

GRTr4sh - Dethroning the King: The Smash 4 Championship

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 10:02 AM PST

Bayonetta causing players to suffer for 10 minutes

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 05:59 AM PST

PMRank 2017: 40-31

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 02:47 PM PST

If Marth has you down, here are 5 Neutral Game Tips for Fox vs. Marth! Feedback on any aspect would be much appreciated.

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 12:25 PM PST

Post Genesis 5 Trash Talk Thread

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 07:46 AM PST

RULES:

CAPS LOCK ON

DOWNVOTES OFF

POST ALL YOUR "I TOLD YOU SO" COMMENTS HERE, ALL THE SIDEBETS WON, YOUR HBOX/LEFFEN SHADE, AND ALL GENERAL TRASH TALK HERE. GLOAT TILL YOUR HEART'S CONTENT.

submitted by /u/TheRealestMush
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Bayonetta in Smash 4

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 01:01 AM PST

After seeing Manny's tweet, I just wanted to vocalize a few things to however many/few people may see this.

I know I'll get down voted by every Bayo main out there, but I truly think this character has ruined the game.

As a viewer, before she was released, I watched religiously and even after, too... That is, until we reached the current situation. Since EVO, my interest has consistently decreased to the point where I didn't even know GF of G5 was going on until midway through the set. This is coming from someone who watched damn near every streamed set of EVO. At this point, my fandom is almost exclusively following Larry, Elegant, and Nairo through bracket and the occasional powerhouse MU if the cards play out right. Unless sm4sh gets back to pre-bayo entertainment levels, I just don't know if I'll ever watch consistently again.

As a player, I can say that playing Bayo is without a doubt the most annoying. The precision required is simply so much that it takes away from the enjoyment of the game. I'll admit, however, that I'm a lower level player, so let's examine the top of the scene. Look no further than EVO. With an absolutely enormous percent lead, ZeRo misinputted ONE monkey flip and LOST EVO as a result. Manny recently tweeted he doesn't want to travel a lot to Nationals purely because of Bayonetta and how she makes it "a guessing game."

I love this game and I think 56 of the characters are beautifully crafted (Buffpuff!), and I don't know what the fix is to this problem, but at G5, sm4sh had nearly half the participants as Melee and I just don't see this as a coincidence. I'm not saying anything negative about Bayo mains, but for a scene to succeed it needs passionate players and entertained viewers, which just doesn't seem to be the case at the moment. Something needs to give, and it may just be Bayonetta.

submitted by /u/vklein52
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NY Power Ranking Q4 (made entirely out of pictures of ANTi)

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 08:53 AM PST

Banning Bayonetta: Arguments I'm Tired of Hearing

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 10:01 AM PST

It seems like this has reentered the community conversation, and frankly I think it should. However, I feel like such a huge decision requires that we waste less space on recycled arguments, delivered with shoddy evidence, that get lost in the shuffle of the internet and resurface to no one's benefit. So here are some arguments I'm tired of hearing about:

"We didn't ban Meta Knight in Brawl, when he was inarguably a more overpowered character than Bayonetta is. Furthermore, Meta Knight became ubiquitous in tournament brackets in a way that Bayonetta, so far, has not."

Here's the thing: we should have banned Meta Knight. We also did, but we did it too late, so the rule was ignored due to the massive metagame set up around the character. None of this means a ban on Bayonetta would disobey precedent, or be somehow ridiculous; they're different games, and different characters.

"There is specific counterplay against Bayonetta. Instead of banning her, why don't you just learn the game and get good?

Sure: this is half-true. You can SDI out of certain Bayo combos. Sometimes. However, this argument lacks the comprehensiveness and detail that such a massively overpowered character deserves. What about Bayo's kills off the side, which can be done in the opening seconds of a match with 3 fairs? What about Witch Time? What about Bat Within? What about her downtilt to uptilt combos, which definitively cannot be escaped at low percentages, but which can immediately lead to kills? What about her neutral air, which never gets mentioned but which rains Sheik needles in six different directions indefinitely? {edit: while calling them "Sheik needles" is inaccurate, they do cause flinching; as such Bayo's bullets can concretely affect a match in ways beside simple percent.} What about how said neutral air literally prevents many characters from entering her space, with or without any skill or decision-making from the player?

As so many others have said, it's not one specific thing that makes Bayo overpowered. So talking away the problems with "just SDI" is kinda horseshit. Not only that, I simply find it condescending; when even the top 4 players in the world fail to SDI out of her vertical combos, it's clearly not an easy task that anyone has certain information on. Look at what just happened to Nairo in his set v. Mistake: while everyone agrees it appears to have been his fault, no one can agree on how. He's #3 in the world and we still have no idea how he died? And yet you think of SDI as some basic skill we'd be stupid not to master?

How about we finally admit that none of us know shit about SDI, and SDI is only relevant to very specific aspects of Bayonetta's massive toolkit?

"Fox is more ubiquitous in Melee than Bayo has ever been in Smash 4. Even Fox in Smash 4 is more common than Bayonetta in tournament brackets."

This is totally true, no question. Bayonetta is not the only viable character, nor is she even close to that. But I have two problems with the argument:

  • We aren't Melee, nor should we act like it. Melee has 26 characters and about 12 of them are viable. Fox, Marth, Falco and Sheik are demonstrably superior to the rest of the cast; that doesn't mean that's the way it should be, or that everyone's happy with it. Half the reason people are clamoring for Melee HD is that there are actual problems with the game, problems which could be ameliorated with buffs and nerfs to specific moves. {edit: clearly this is untrue, despite having been my experience at Phoenix locals, which are clearly insufficient data. My bad.} By contrast, Smash 4 has 56 characters, and about 30-40 of them are viable; nearly all of them have a bad matchup against Bayonetta, and nearly none can be said to win against her (with the possible exceptions of Cloud, Diddy Kong and Pikachu). Smash 4 aims to be a balanced game in a way that Melee wasn't. So why are we expecting Smash 4 to have the same level of balance as Melee? Isn't it one of the game's greatest virtues that there are this many sweet characters? Many of whom are significantly less viable, some even unviable, for the presence of Bayonetta?

  • More importantly: there are more Bayonettas on the PGR this season than any other character. In local usage, the overwhelming opinion is that Bayonetta has become more frequently used than any other character. Every season, Bayonetta's usage increases; it is a bad idea to sit here and say "Well, she's not the most-used character NOW!" when her trajectory is clearly headed toward autonomy of the metagame. Let's NOT make the mistake we made with Meta Knight, where we waited until he became so dominant he was impossible to ban.

"It would unfairly affect the performance of players who main Bayonetta."

True! This sucks. It's so terrible and unfair that these excellent players, many of whom are responsible for our favorite sets, would have to switch characters post-ban. It's a good thing they're all such excellent players, all of whom have other characters they've shown in tournament, and all of whom can survive without their current main. It totally sucks, and it's really unfair - I don't challenge that. But decisions made for the community inevitably give collateral damage to individuals.

submitted by /u/willbrown630
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How big ZeRos retirement was.

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 09:44 AM PST

I honestly didn't register how big ZeRos retirement was until I was with my friends who play a lot of Smash but don't watch any competitive Smash except for EVO because it was on Disney XD and they asked me if it was real that ZeRo was retiring from Smash. They don't watch tournaments, they don't keep up with the scene, and even then just because they play Smash casually the news of ZeRo's retirement reached them.

submitted by /u/lnnyosoto
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Awesome Greninja 0-to-death by Somé.

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 08:07 AM PST

[Video] For the fourth straight year my friends and I have gathered from across the country to rent a cabin and play Smash.

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 01:56 PM PST

Smash Cabin 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E81hY1aasGk

The tradition continues and we're back again for year four! I've posted here the last couple years and if you're interested, all the previous years are linked below.

The in-game footage is a little faster this year to match the tempo of the song--it's more for entertainment than a flashy combo video or anything so if things look fast, that's why.

Anyway, as I wrote in previous posts, a lot of us live in different places and haven't gotten to see each other in recent years so the cabin is our effort to, at least once a year, make time to reconnect and celebrate why we're all friends in the first place: Smash Bros. The group is consisted of people I've known as long as grade school all the way to people I only just met a couple years back. Like Smash, it's a roster of people from all different time periods, some of whom had never met until the first cabin. This whole thing takes place in PA, but we have people coming in from all over.

By now, in year four the Cabin actually has a pretty crazy history. There have been blood feuds, drunk kitchens, call-outs, crazy events, hype tournaments and all sorts of nonsense. Every year we try to add something new and this year was no different.

Honestly, I didn't even think the first one would work, so to see us hit four now is amazing and we're all pretty excited for next year.

Here are the previous cabin vids if anyone is interested:

Smash Cabin 2017: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3HFFfhJPGE

Smash Cabin 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KG0-YyPgkY

Smash Cabin 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCPK4v3VDsg

As with last year's post, if anyone ever had the idea to do something like this: do it. I'll gladly answer any questions about logistics or how we handled things--all it takes to get things started is a FB Group.

Smash is just one of those games that can bring people together and this annual gathering is definitely a testament to that.

submitted by /u/Phase_Three
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GENESIS 8 - Winners Finals - Liquid | Sharkz vs. Tempo | Zain

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 10:47 AM PST

Winners Finals

Tyler "Sharkz" Bass // Twitter | Wiki | Sponsor
vs
Zain Naghmi // Twitch | Twitter | Wiki | Sponsor

Sharkz 2 - 3 Zain
= Battlefield = ---
= Yoshi's Story = ---
--- = Yoshi's Story =
--- = Final Destination =
--- = Final Destination =

Generated by Tournament Tabler

submitted by /u/mojo8675309
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Insane item combos and some techskill showcase by Japanese Ness main hikasan.

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 11:05 AM PST

Izaw: Art of Mewtwo

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 01:08 PM PST

Ri-ma and Sigma registered for Hyrule Saga!

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 02:40 PM PST

https://smash.gg/hyrulesaga

This will be Sigma's first event in the states!

submitted by /u/FullGifted
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How r/kappa edits Melee videos

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 12:36 AM PST

In light of recent concerns about Smash 4: The argument for an FD only stagelist

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 11:56 AM PST

Following Genesis 5, many on Reddit and Twitter have proclaimed that Smash 4 is dying, and that Bayonetta is the sole cause. I and many others over the past day have been defending her, calling out the hypocrisy of people who complain when Bayo gets kills at sub-30% but not when ZSS or Meta Knight does it. But ultimately, my point in making these devil's-advocate type arguments hasn't been to convince people that Bayonetta isn't bullshit - it's been to convince people that Smash 4's bullshit runs far, far deeper than Bayonetta.

There are two large issues that, for me, make Smash 4 far less enjoyable as both a player and a spectator. Coincidentally, both of these issues are things which Bayonetta is perhaps the best character in the game at exploiting - but there are many, many others who exploit them as well.

  • The first issue is rage-assisted, consistent 0/10/20/30 to deaths with minimal counterplay. Bayonetta (there's technically counterplay through SDI, but it's not consistent), ZSS, and Metaknight are by far the biggest offenders in this regard, but we also see it happen occasionally with characters like Mario and Rosa.

  • The second issue is platform camping. Platform camping is the Smash 4 equivalent of planking from Brawl. With shield-slide off platforms having been completely removed for no reason in particular, it's far too difficult for any character that doesn't have a command grab or a shieldbreaker to apply meaningful platform pressure without the risk/reward being heavily skewed against them. Once again, Bayonetta is one of the best at making use of this (see: Salem vs Captain L at Genesis 5), due to her frame 4 out of shield witch twist and potential witch times, but really any character who has the lead can make use of this to force an extremely favorable situation while also slowing the game down. Sonics will frequently camp platforms after getting a lead to fish for uthrow -> uair cheese. Clouds and Rosas will frequently camp platforms while they wait for limit / luma (see: Falln vs Earth at Civil War). Anyone can lame out a Little Mac by getting the lead and then chill on platforms till the timer runs out. From a spectator point of view, this leads to slow & boring gameplay, and from a player's point of view, it leads to huge frustration unless you're playing one of the very few characters that can actually pressure platforms well.

My point is, banning Bayo won't make these issues go away. It will certainly reduce them, as she is the best character at abusing these mechanics, but the underlying rot will persist, and as people optimize more and more and become more determined to win at any cost, they're going to start making better use of these mechanics with other top tiers.

I also think this comment from another thread on the front page highlights the absurdity of banning Bayonetta. She is #1 on only a handful of local PRs, and we still typically only see 1-2 Bayos in top 8 of any national. We would quite literally be punishing Bayo players who have put in hours of work labbing and optimizing their character, not because Bayo has dominant, unmatched results, not because she breaks the game in some fundamental way, but because a subset which consists of largely low and mid-level players hates fighting her. If that were an acceptable way to get characters banned, we would have banned Sonic a long time ago.

There is one solution which will efficiently address the issues stated above in a more permanent way than banning Bayo will, without ostracizing a significant portion of the community who is against banning Bayo. And that is for FD to be the only legal stage.

  • Most rage-assisted early kills in Smash 4 rely on EITHER a) the low ceiling of Town & City, or b) platform extensions. Removing platforms entirely by making FD the only legal stage will greatly reduce the prevalence of this for all characters who currently abuse it. There's no doubt that we will still see some hype early kills, but they will be from genuine good reads and catches (e.g., catching a high monkeyflip) rather than extending a combo onto a platform for free, or from camping on a platform until someone hits your shield so you can witch twist them out of shield from higher up, or from having rage and doing just about anything on T&C.

  • Platform camping, obviously, won't be a factor with no platforms.

Of course, such a drastic change would have significant side effects on the meta, beyond removing these two core issues. However, I firmly believe that the side effects that will be caused by an FD-only stagelist will be largely positive ones. Let's go over them.

1. The top tiers get worse.

This one's probably the most obvious. Most of the current top tiers (ZSS, Fox, Cloud, Bayo, Rosa) all love platform stages, either for combo extensions in the case of ZSS/Fox/Bayo, or camping/landing options in the case of Bayo/Rosa/Cloud (as well as other hated characters like Sonic but I don't believe he's top tier).

The bonobo in the room here is Diddy Kong, a top tier who would absolutely adore an FD-only stagelist because of how well he can dominate neutral and cover landings on that stage. But, at the current time, most people agree that Diddy is below the likes of Bayo/Cloud, and some even think he may be worse than Rosa and Sheik (they're wrong, but they exist). Will an FD-only stagelist really make it so that Diddy is better than Bayo and Cloud? I'm skeptical, but even if it does, I'm fine living in a world where Diddy is #1 - I think Smash 4 is at its best when it encourages strong & frequent neutral interactions from both players, and Diddy, following extensive nerfs, is a character who does that.

2. Many mid and low tiers get better.

Little Mac is the obvious benefactor here, as nobody would be able to entirely trivialize him by going to platforms anymore. Most of the projectile zoning archetype also tends to hover around mid or low tier (Link, Tink, Pacman, Duck Hunt, Villager), and these characters will likely receive some boosts. TBH though I don't actually play these characters - maybe they do better when they have the ability to platform camp - but even if FD isn't currently their best stage, the removal of Cloud's best stages (a character who I've heard tends to do very well against all these characters) will surely help them out.

Notable mid tiers who probably get worse are Charizard, who generally appreciates having platforms for uthrow kills & added landing options, and Samus, who appreciates platforms for her own combo extensions and potential zero to deaths (see: Pyreeze vs Konga at Emerald City 4). Overall, however, I believe that every character is at least viable on FD, and I think that broadly speaking, mid and low tiers would do better on an FD stagelist.

Grapplers (DK, Bowser) would be in a strange place. FD means that they will have an even harder time landing than they currently do, but at the same time, it will no longer be possible for their opponents to flee to platforms when they're in death % for the grab combo. Overall, they probably won't get notably better or worse.

3. It solves the Lylat Problem.

The "Lylat Problem" has been sort of been shoved to the side recently while people debate the "Bayonetta Problem," but it's still a problem that a stage with so many buggy and often game-deciding interactions is on our legal stagelist. The previous solutions proposed for the Lylat Problem involved banning Lylat and T&C and having a 3 stage list, possibly with T&C as a counterpick - but the problem with this is that many people see a 3 stage starter list as giving a huge advantage to whoever strikes second. But if FD is the only legal stage, then there's no more issues regarding striking, and the Lylat Problem is solved.

So that's the case in favor of an FD-only stagelist. From my point of view, the Smash 4 community has three options:

1) Change nothing, and accept that the two core issues identified above are a part of the game, along with any reduction in entrants / viewership that they may be associated with.

2) Ban Bayonetta, because she is the best at abusing the two core issues identified above. This would provide temporarily relief, but I believe that in the long-term people would just learn to better abuse these mechanics with other characters, and the game itself would not be improved. This would also ostracize all Bayonetta players, as well as people such as myself who strongly believe that we shouldn't just ban characters based on the whims of what people like and don't like to fight.

3) Radically overhaul the stagelist such that FD is the only legal stage. People generally have far less "stage loyalty" than they do character loyalty, so it will not alienate nearly as many people. It will provide a long-term solution to the two core issues, and simultaneously make most of the top tier characters a bit worse while making some mid tiers better, causing more overall character diversity. It also gets rid of Lylat.

If it wasn't already obvious, I think 3) is the best solution by far.

submitted by /u/Roosterton
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T is going to Hyrule Saga!

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 04:50 PM PST

Who are your top 5 melee casters?

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 09:01 AM PST

if you could only choose from 5 people to cast your tournament, who would it be?

submitted by /u/R0FL661
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OrionRank 2017 Top 100 - #50-#41

Posted: 23 Jan 2018 10:46 AM PST

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