Unlabelled Super Smash Bros - Daily Discussion Thread 06/25/18

6/26/2018 11:58:00 am
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Super Smash Bros - Daily Discussion Thread 06/25/18

Daily Discussion Thread 06/25/18

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 12:11 AM PDT

Welcome to the Daily Discussion Thread series on /r/smashbros! Inspired by /r/SSBM and /r/hiphopheads's DDTs, you can post here:

  • General questions about Smash

  • General discussion (tentatively allowing for some off-topic discussion)

  • "Light" content that might not have been allowed as its own post (please keep it about Smash)

Other guidelines:

  • Be good to one another.

  • While DDT can be lax, please abide by our general rules. No linking to illegal/pirated stuff, no flaming, game debates, etc.

  • Please keep your meme spam contained to the sticky comment provided below.

If you have any suggestions about future DDTs or anything else subreddit related, please send them our way! Thanks in advance!

Also, if you want to chat with other /r/smashbros users you can do so via our Discord channel.

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We live in the timeline where this can exist in a video game. Remember that.

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 12:06 PM PDT

:D They're just happy to be included again

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 11:38 AM PDT

Now we know what happened to Snake's best asset. Samus is to blame.

Posted: 24 Jun 2018 11:54 PM PDT

Bandana Dee Reveal Trailer Leaked! [Joke Comic]

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 12:47 PM PDT

New Smash Blog Post! (6/25) "Today's Fighter - #31: Snake - Back by popular demand, Snake brings a ranged fighting style unlike any other fighter in the game. His Final Smash locks onto an opponent and fires five homing missiles."

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 06:02 PM PDT

A beautiful fun fact: Revali's voice actor made top 48 (33rd) at 2GG: Hyrule Saga

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 06:46 AM PDT

Melee/Brawl Blue Mario Ultimate Recolor

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 10:13 AM PDT

Sashimi Wiggling - Wii Fit Trainer Sliding Technique

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 01:30 PM PDT

A Graph of Weight v. Fall Speed for Every Character in Smash 4

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 02:44 PM PDT

Melee has much better defensive options than Smash 4

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 01:42 PM PDT

Disclaimer: Defensive options refer to options that let you defend yourself in a disadvantaged state. I'm not necessarily talking about neutral, since ironically, Smash 4's rolls and shields are way better in neutral than when you need to defend yourself. Read on with this in mind.

Been thinking about this for a while, but after playing traditional fighting games and talking to Jibca, I'm motivated to make a thread.

Everyone sees Smash 4's rolls and free airdodges and says that Smash 4's defensive options are too strong. But that's not the case - these moves can be annoying to deal with in neutral, but they're actually really bad when you're defending. If you airdodge or roll at the wrong time (and considering top tiers are basically built on 50/50s or total coverage), you can straight up die for it.

In traditional fighting games, having strong defensive options is one major factor that separates the top players from everyone else. That's why one of the big criticisms for SFV is the lack of defensive options. You'll note that S4 and SFV happen to be way more upset-heavy than their predecessors as a result.

So let's talk Melee. If you're caught at ledge, you're not in nearly as bad a position as in Smash 4. A good defensive player can make use of the Invincibility to force their opponent to back off, and allow a neutral reset. Invincible ledge dashes force the opponent to respect you coming off of ledge. When you're hit, crouch cancelling invalidates a number of moves at varying percents. You can SDI and DI in various ways in order to avoid certain death. A well timed airdodge or roll can actually help you to recover or escape bad situations (especially because you don't have to use them as often). So on.

Melee's defensive options are GOOD, but I think people forget that because Melee is so fast-paced. If Melee actually had less defensive options than Smash 4, you would see wayyyy more upsets. But Melee has balance - strong defensive options and strong offensive options. That's what helps to make it so consistent.

Going back to S4, the biggest difference between ZeRo and the rest in the early days of Smash 4 wasn't just his neutral. He had the perfect DI for every situation, and no one could catch on to how he used Monkey Flip (there was a lot of complaining about it even post-nerf, until people started punishing him for it). Even when you think you had him dead to rights, he would just... live. As Smash 4 pushed towards a meta that heavily limited defensive options, ZeRo wasn't able to keep it up with what he had. One Monkey Flip at low percents could mean death, as we've all learned.

And Bayo - we all know her advantage state is powerful, but that isn't enough on its own. Her disadvantage is by far the best in the game, so of course she tends to fare well even at lower levels. Imagine if she had a bad disadvantage state - no mix-ups on your shield to land. No Bat Within. No Witch Time. She would get rushed down, and every combo that didn't kill could nearly be a death sentence for her, especially against other top tiers. And the other end of the spectrum - imagining Bayo fighting characters with real defensive options... well, we've seen how volatile the ditto is.

Ultimately, I say all this to communicate that the idea that Smash 4's defensive options are strong just isn't true. It's necessary to have stronger defensive options in order to encourage players to take more risks in neutral, and strong offensive options ensure that a neutral win counts.

That isn't putting Smash 4 down in favor of Melee or anything - I am a Smash 4 player, after all - but I wanted to make that point.

Tl;dr - Defensive options are one way for good players to set themselves apart, and the fact that Smash 4 lacks those options is what gives way to a slower neutral & many upsets - despite offensive options being quite strong amongst top tiers.

EDIT: As many people have been misunderstanding me, I wanted to clarify: I don't think Melee is more defensive than Smash 4. I think there are better defensive options (and neutral options) which allows for the player to remain an active participant in the match.

I'm going to quote /u/HitboxOfASnail, since he absolutely got it:

"Melee's defensive system allows you to be an active participent in the game the whole time. Even when you are getting combo's 0 to death, there are dozens of places where DI, SDI, ledge caneling hitstun, tech/no tech, etc, there are always decision making to be done and tech to be applied, even when you are getting wrecked.

People focus on the offensive freedom and movement, but its really the defense thats an underrated part of what makes the game so fun."

It's not that Melee is more defensive (it isn't). It's not that Smash 4's defensive options are stronger than the offensive options (they aren't). In Smash 4, against many top tiers, once you're hit, you're in a vortex. Getting out of disadvantage is a lot about timing one of 2 to 3 options in a way that throws off your opponent. Sometimes it works, otherwise you're right back in disadvantage.

Melee's defensive options let you do more when you get hit, or when you're in an unfavorable position. And yes - recoveries are so much worse in Melee. However, if you manage to get back to ledge, or if you're on stage, you have way more options to get right back into the fight. (On that note, I'm super excited for Ultimate's offstage, which seems like it could be a nice balance.)

submitted by /u/WonderSabreur
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The 10 Best Competitive Changes in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 09:27 AM PDT

I really want a much higher stamina cap in stamina mode.

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 10:29 AM PDT

Smash needs way higher stamina caps in stamina mode in my opinion.

I want to be able to play as Samus/Mario with 300HP against Ridley/Bowser with like 5000HP. It would be really fun to emulate actual boss battles in this way.

­­ C'mon.

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Thinkaman presents the statistical case for banning Bayonetta

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 06:35 AM PDT

It would be nice if in smash ultimate you could bind a button to only perform a short hop.

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 12:42 PM PDT

So you could have x be a normal jump and y be only short hops.

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Did a drawing in honor of Ridley's announcement!

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 07:44 PM PDT

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate trailer but all the characters appear in numerical order

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 08:52 PM PDT

My biggest hope for Smash Ultimate

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 10:11 AM PDT

Having all the characters in between tier s and b.

Im aware that perfect balance its imposible in any game really, and some character will be better than other, but imagine if there wasnt a "trash character" in Smash Ultimate, with no tier f or g. With everyone (or most of them at the very least) having a chance to win tournaments.

Now with Nintendo wanting to make this game competitive, maybe this can happen. Lets hope this can happen.

submitted by /u/shakertouzett1
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An Updated List of Smash Ultimate Character Compilations

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 04:13 PM PDT

Entire Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFEjoND7uuoE3UYQ9QruAfA51WWsLBR4e

Individual links:

Cloud: https://youtu.be/TtKIz0oIgIk

Pokemon Trainer: https://youtu.be/t66S5u4--g0

Snake: https://youtu.be/qsJoBdvQC-U

Zelda: https://youtu.be/-2_ZZKHhV6A

Sheik: https://youtu.be/8DC1o4-3bjQ

Bayonetta: https://youtu.be/YOB7wmlF2XU

Mewtwo: https://youtu.be/TIV2PYIFkqE

DK: https://youtu.be/cVXGt8EKIGY

I am planning on making many more so let me know what characters you would like me to compile next (after pikachu). Although characters may be changed i think this could still prove to be useful. At this rate we will have one for every character before the end of the summer! Enjoy!

submitted by /u/Hash_brownz1
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If online play has the similar set-up that Mario Tennis Aces has, I believe this will be the revolutionary Smash Bros.

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 01:51 PM PDT

Seeing your opponent's network connection before starting a match and being able to decline is a huge step in the right direction for Nintendo. I remember playing Smash 4 online and almost always having a laggy, terrible time. If Ultimate's online play is similar to Mario Tennis Aces, I am incredibly stoked for the future of Nintendo's online play.

submitted by /u/OldManFanch
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On SSBU’s Aesthetic

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 10:15 AM PDT

Thank God Ultimate's (and Smash 4's) art direction is more vibrant and cartoony than Brawl's. The hyperrealism of the texturing was one of my biggest issues with it. It felt like it was embarrassed to be a Nintendo game.

In your opinion, which game in the series has the best stylization?

submitted by /u/twocentsmiguel
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Can anyone tell what Nairo's saying in the background of his new Modpack intro? Laughing hard af rn

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 01:27 PM PDT

Am I the only one who wants multiple voice language options in this new Smash?

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 07:39 PM PDT

Wish they would bring back other languages such as the French, Spanish and Japanese. It's fun hearing them in all of their other languages. I do not understand why in this day and age why we aren't give this choice in Smash of all games.

Thoughts?

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Not popular, but I am excited for the mii's.

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 08:26 PM PDT

I love customizing my Mii's look but still having my move set. It will be nice to see them online. Most people don't care, but I can't wait.

submitted by /u/peacefighter
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I drew Ice Climbers

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 07:44 PM PDT

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