Unlabelled Dota 2 - ESL One Genting 2018 Day 3 Match Discussions

1/26/2018 03:27:00 am
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Dota 2 - ESL One Genting 2018 Day 3 Match Discussions

ESL One Genting 2018 Day 3 Match Discussions

Posted: 24 Jan 2018 07:16 PM PST

ESL One Genting 2018

Presented by ESL & Mineski Events Team

Sponsored by Intel, Mercedes Benz, MSI, Predator, Logitech G, NEED for SEAT, paysafecard, & Resort World Genting

Need info on the event? Check out the Survival Guide.

See here for yesterday's VODS and results

Coverage

Liquipedia | JoinDota | GosuGamers | Dotabuff

Streams

English Main | English 2 | Russian | Russian 2

Group A Group B
Team Secret Team Liquid
Planet Dog PENTA Sports
compLexity Gaming Natus Vincere
Fnatic Evil Geniuses
Vici Gaming Mineski
VGJ.Thunder TNC Pro Team
SG e-sports LGD.Forever Young
Virtus Pro Newbee
ID Team vs Team Result Cntdwn (SGT) PST EST GMT CET SGT AEDT Frmt
B LSF1 vs 12:00 20:00 23:00 4:00 5:00 12:00 15:00 Bo3
B LSF2 vs 12:00 20:00 23:00 4:00 5:00 12:00 15:00 Bo3
A LF vs 15:30 23:30 2:30 7:30 8:30 15:30 18:30 Bo3
A WF vs 15:30 23:30 2:30 7:30 8:30 15:30 18:30 Bo3
B LF vs 19:00 3:00 6:00 11:00 12:00 19:00 22:00 Bo3
B WF vs 19:00 3:00 6:00 11:00 12:00 19:00 22:00 Bo3

Group B - Losers' Semifinal 1: Natus Vincere vs Mineski

Game 1 Winner:
Game 2 Winner:
Game 3 Winner:

Result:   2:1  

Match thread

VODS: Game 1 | Game 2 | Game 3

Group B - Losers' Semifinal 2: TNC Pro Team vs Evil Geniuses

Game 1 Winner:
Game 2 Winner:
Game 3 Winner:

Result:   0:2  

Match thread

VODS: Game 1 | Game 2 | Game 3

Group A - Losers' Final: VGJ.Thunder vs Vici Gaming

Game 1 Winner:
Game 2 Winner:
Game 3 Winner:

Result:   1:2  

Match thread

VODS: Game 1 | Game 2 | Game 3

Group A - Winners' Final: Team Secret vs Virtus Pro

Game 1 Winner:
Game 2 Winner:
Game 3 Winner:

Result:   2:0  

Match thread

VODS: Game 1 | Game 2 | Game 3

Group B - Losers' Final: vs

Game 1 Winner:
Game 2 Winner:
Game 3 Winner:

Result:   0:2  

Match thread

VODS: Game 1 | Game 2 | Game 3

Group B - Winners' Final: Team Liquid vs Newbee

Game 1 Winner:
Game 2 Winner:
Game 3 Winner:

Result:   2:1  

Match thread

VODS: Game 1 | Game 2 | Game 3

Countdown times are in SGT. All times are subject to change based on the length of matches and delays.

submitted by /u/D2TournamentThreads
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Don't be sucked in by the latest PR statement

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 04:09 AM PST

The latest tweet and further "clarifications" from ESL are meaningless, because ESL HAVE NO RIGHTS TO THE DOTATV CONTENT in the first place, so they don't get to set the conditions for streamers.

These clarifications are PR statements carefully crafted to give the idea that ESL get to decide which streams are acceptable, and therefore which ones they can take down. They may have achieved that so far, but only by abusing the law, not by right.

Until Valve change their policy, any stream that only uses data from the client is fine, and we don't need pointers from ESL on who they will and will not allow to stream from the client. That's been the case for as long as I've played dota. The idea that ESL can "clarify" something that ISN'T EVEN THEIR POLICY is arrogant and condescending.

The idea that ESL is now "going easy" on streamers because they've realised the error of their ways is a fallacy. They had no rights to terminate non-commercial streams in the first place. However, their post is worded as if they're doing the community a favor by allowing streamers who are already allowed to stream in the first place.

They're hoping their new attitude will make you forget something crucial: they chose to abuse the DMCA process to shut down streams that weren't breaking the rules.

Edit: In the AMA ESL are still stating "We create and produce the content of the tournament, we do have legal agreements with Valve for those tournaments, and we had streams taken down which violated a policy laid out and publicly communicated." Organisers have never owned the rebroadcasting rights to the games, only to the content they add. Many people watch their events because they add quality content and use quality platforms, but many people also just watch in DotaTV.

Until Valve tell us differently, streamers like Mike Le Phoenix were punished by a fraudulent use of the DMCA process. The discussion about Facebook and its problems is important, but don't forget that this company chose to break the law to stifle competition because they had a poor offering, and still won't back down from their position.

TLDR: If Valve want to change things so that orgs own the games, they can, but they don't right now, and ESL just doesn't get it.

submitted by /u/Isaelie
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Thanks ESL, for allowing me to see into the 4th dimension with your FB stream.

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 02:57 AM PST

EPICENTER general manager: "Unofficial tournament broadcasts do not affect us at all."

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 08:11 AM PST

Thanks ESL.

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 02:46 AM PST

I am Ulrich Schulze, here to answer your questions about Facebook and other things. AmA

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 05:23 AM PST

Hello Dota 2 Community,

Let me start this by saying that I want to apologize for not hitting the right tone in the last 2 days. It was a frustrating situation for us, and that impacted how I talked about it more than it should have. While there might be the perception of me being a guy in a suit sitting somewhere out of touch with what is going on, I have worked in esports for 15 years and have always had its further growth and success in mind, which in this case was not achieved and which therefore has been a source of personal frustration. You as the community have every right to be equally frustrated at the situation and our handling of it.

Second let me to apologize on behalf of ESL and Facebook for the issues you've experienced throughout the start of our ESL One Genting broadcast. The technical issues should not have happened and the fact that the viewing experience on the Facebook platform is not yet where they or us want it to be, is clear from the feedback you've given. It is something everyone involved has been working on around the clock - but obviously that is not enough at this point.

I will be here, joined by /u/ESLJohannes to answer questions throughout the next few hours. We've already been compiling your feedback from the other Reddit threads and are building a roadmap of the work that is ahead of us and any feedback left in this thread will definitely heard. Johannes runs our social media department and works closely with the different platforms on the user experience and community side and will make sure that you are heard

submitted by /u/theflyingdj
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Full size battlefury from wood.

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 02:33 AM PST

Incredibly bad PR hurt ESL more than exclusive streaming on Facebook ever did.

Posted: 24 Jan 2018 08:59 PM PST

If ESL had tried to win people's favor and asked to give the event a chance, then many people would have considered watching in a sub-par platform. After all all the good talents were there, and people have affinity to their favorite casters.

Instead you write a series of tweets blaming viewers for complaining about real issues like we do not know anything. And then proceed to play dirty and ban everyone that tried to get the games to the unhappy viewerbase, further making matters worse.

What ESL forgot was that it is the viewers at home are a big part of any successful event. Treating this large mass like entitled Dota hungry fucks without brains got you bad reputation, massive loss of viewership, and worst, angry viewers that now want to see you fail because you were a dick.

Edit: The recent AMA was the only positive indication on ESL's part. But the VP just kept answering Twitch does not give money, FB is future, etc. No apologies to the DMCA, when it was clearly wrong and they have backtracked under (unknown?) pressure. He really does seem to like treating everyone but himself as wrong and an idiot. Truth even if Twitch does not fund you as well as FB, if you dont have viewers then you dont have sponsors, and you cant have an event, and you dont have a job. Dude keeps impressing me by outdoing his own fuckery.

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Why ESL is still delusional and destructive

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 09:55 AM PST

All the quotes in here are copypasted straight from the AMA, so feel free to ctrl+f them if you want.

Recently ESL VP Ulrich Schulze opened up an AMA on this subreddit. In the field of video games, and in this day and age, AMA's are the ultimate PR move. They're basically a consumer venting session that encourages you to be more polite and to sugarcoat your complaints. I can't blame ESL for finally busting out a real PR move, but a quick look at some of the content and answers of that AMA will show that Ulrich and ESL are maintaining their disrespectful and delusional attitude.

Let's begin with Ulrich's introduction. He claims to be apologizing for not "hitting the right tone", explaining that the last two days were a "frustrating situation" for him and ESL. Some tweets have been deleted and some people have been unblocked--and I don't want to conflate the abusive and disrespectful tweets by other Dota personalities with Ulrich--but any tweets about the poor quality of the stream or streaming platform were an invitation to be flamed and blocked, or met with a condescending remark about how the "real world" works (gamers love hearing that, by the way). Some residual effects of this can be seen on Ulrich's Twitter, notably the desperate attempt to clean up the aftermath of this.

Frankly, if you're a grown adult who's supposedly been working in esports for "15 years", it is unacceptable to be handling your frustrations by throwing a tantrum on Twitter. You're Senior VP of an important player in the esports ecosystem, and your response to a business decision not working out how you like is to insult, belittle, and demean your fans? (More on that in a second). Far from "hitting the right tone", you willingly increased the toxicity of the discourse surrounding your own event because...why? Because you made a bad product? Unacceptable response, unacceptable apology. Plain and simple.

But the real meat of this lies in the AMA responses, so let's move on from what we already knew was a huge mistake by ESL.

First, the delusion. In response to a question about why ESL made a deal with Facebook over any other platform, Ulrich answers: "We believe in the long term value of this because Facebook is a platform which reaches more users than any other platform." To be clear, this is referring to users that are not already engaged in esports, AKA the other hundreds of millions of users that use Facebook for all sorts of random stuff. Here, the delusion becomes pretty clear. What was ESL's plan to engage any of those other users who do not care about esports? If, by Ulrich's own admittance, Facebook is not prepared to stream esports events, how could streaming there be any more accessible than a quick redirect to Twitch or YouTube? Why was there literally ZERO intuitive ways to find the stream via Facebook if that's the audience you're trying to engage? ESL allegedly believes Facebook's huge userbase provides an opportunity for increased viewership, yet they did nothing to engage Facebook users who are not yet fans, and actively discouraged pre-existing fans from visiting Facebook to watch the stream. It is also worth mentioning that the literal barriers to watching the Facebook stream are monumental compared to Twitch or YouTube. Mobile options are broken or nonexistent. Secondary language streams were nonexistent. Having to have a Facebook account to chat or sometimes even view the stream is yet another barrier to entry. If ESL truly believes Facebook and their actions in promoting this event could ever possibly lead to increased viewership, they are simply delusional.

Secondly, Ulrich promptly began lying and backtracking within his own AMA. In response to one question, he clearly states: "Facebook numbers are not in yet (the number you see does not count users who are not logged in) so have to wait for that". However, when another user asks: "Can you confirm that the number shown on Stream is not the actual viewer number, as it doesn't account for users that aren't logged in and viewers from embedded streams?", Ulrich replies: "I don't know exactly, will find out." So which is it? Does the display viewership number match the actual viewership number or not? This isn't too important of a point, but it continues the trend of ESL making unclear, intentionally vague, or flat-out incorrect statements about their Facebook broadcast agreement.

Oh, remember when I said that the only way Facebook could reach more users than Twitch and YouTube would be if Ulrich was including people who don't already engage in esports? Apparently that isn't ESL's goal. Ulrich states: "I don't think we should ever aim to convert people who have never played Dota or don't know esports exist." Now, this seems like a pretty horrible mindset for someone who has "always had [esport's] further growth and success in mind", but it also leaves me wondering WHO exactly ESL thinks they are reaching by streaming on Facebook. It's not Dota and esports fans, but it's not people who aren't Dota and esports fans? Huh? Ulrich goes on mention that 4.5 million people "like" Dota 2 on Facebook, and that he believes they could all be potential watchers of a stream. I agree, but then I look at ESL's unique Twitch channel views. This one ESL channel has amassed over 36 MILLION unique viewers--a bit more than 4.5 million. I won't even bother accounting for like bots, dead Facebook accounts, the fact that clicking a like button is an entirely different statement than being a "fan" of something, etc. etc. The fact of the matter is that there was never a specific viewership population ESL genuinely thought would watch on Facebook over Twitch or YouTube.

If you want any further proof of that, just look at how Ulrich repeatedly handles criticism of the terrible Facebook streaming platform and ESL's complete lack of consideration of their fanbase. I'll provide an image this time, since I think the exchange speaks for itself, and you can find a dozen variations on this awful response throughout the thread: IMAGE

Now, I could continue ragging on ESL's delusions and total lack of foresight (intentional or unintentional) all day, but the real meat of the matter is their total disrespect to their fans and the community that allows them to exist.

The aforementioned Twitter tantrums by Ulrich and other Dota personalities are really evidence enough that those who have "achieved the esports dream" don't give a damn about the community's opinions, and that any criticism of them or their actions will be met with childish whining (ironic, isn't it?). However, what really matters is the supremely anti-consumer, pro-corporate attitude ESL and others have demonstrated throughout this fiasco.

Here's the most damning quote from Ulrich himself: "You are a consumer, but at the same time there is not a direct revenue stream to us from you as a viewer. That means we look at sponsorship potential, broadcast revenue, tickets etc. and based on that make a decision. That means it is not necessarily always the easiest for the viewer, i.e. platforms might change or formats. Unfortunately, that is just the reality of esports right now."

To translate: we have no plans to consider the fact that behind a broadcast contract or viewership number, there exist REAL PEOPLE who have the power to make decisions about the content they consume. ESL's expectation is that we consume whatever they produce and then kiss their boots after. The raw numbers of sponsorship and broadcast contracts are the only things that mean anything to ESL and the only things that ever will. ESL does not care about your counterargument that those sponsorship only exist because you tune in to watch. ESL assumes and demands that you will tune in, regardless of how they wrong or offend you. That's the "reality of esports" they have in mind. One where the fans are mindless consumers that amount to nothing but view numbers that can be manipulated according to their business projections and profit margins. One where the failures of a product are not the fault of the producers for not producing well, but of the consumers for not consuming what was laid out before them.

If you have some S&M kinks, maybe that kind of reality appeals to you. But I believe most of us value the ability to express our opinions to the organizations we support, and expect that a producer's number one goal will always be to make a product that consumers are willing to consume. They key word here is willing, not forced. The absurd DMCA strikes against numerous Twitch accounts (including in languages ESL was not offering) just go to show that ESL wishes for a world where we are forced to consume whatever they produce. We as consumers have been undervalued, disrespected, and taken for granted.

There are endless more contradictions (in some responses Ulrich claims the have specific agreements with Valve, in others he claims they have just been interpreting Valve's "vague" blog post) and lies, but I believe I've made my point. If you don't care about the way ESL has treated its fans, and do not care about your options or rights as a consumer, I guess you can go on supporting ESL. But if you want the ability to choose what you watch or expect professionalism and decency from the companies YOU allow to exist, then do not forget the lies, disrespect, and arrogance of ESL in this situation.

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Bulldog with a perfect music for recent ESL drama

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 02:29 AM PST

Rolling Thunder + Ball Lightning = OP Ball of Stun

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 05:04 AM PST

VP of ESL does not know how twitch works! smh

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 08:29 AM PST

2GD on the ESL Situation

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 09:55 AM PST

Disappointed in no Valve response

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 10:40 AM PST

How has Valve not made a SINGLE response to any of the events that have transpired over the past few days?

The sit back and wait approach is as bad as ESL's PR has been.

Does the dota 2 team even exist?

submitted by /u/egtheboys
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AMA in 2 hours by Ulrich Schulze, Senior VP of ESL

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 03:40 AM PST

MLPDota is back casting with a very clear message.

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 02:44 AM PST

Ok so after watching Facebook stream without logging in and in incognito mode, I have an email from them 'it looks like youre having trouble logging into facebook' on an email i dont even use for facebook

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 06:00 AM PST

nice. sick. wp

submitted by /u/YuNg_Br3ezY_
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You actually CAN'T watch esl streams with anti-track protection turned on...

Posted: 24 Jan 2018 02:49 PM PST

Bulldog called by ESL on stream

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 02:45 AM PST

Here's the plan for boycotting ESL

Posted: 24 Jan 2018 03:54 PM PST

  • For god's sake, don't watch the ESL stream. Not on facebook. Not on their website. Unless you actively support what they're doing, watching while simultaneously hating them is the same as supporting them. They think they can bully us into giving them views - we'll show them they can't herd us like sheep.

  • Support twitch streamers. BSJ died for us. And mpl. And maybe some others. And yet more people will no doubt be streaming tonight. Let's show them our appreciation and watch on twitch. Or, watch directly in the Dota game client if you prefer.

  • Stream yourself if you can! They can't DMCA all of us. And if they try, well, it's only bigger news and more protesting. Be the hero we need.

  • Write your congressperson Write to ESL. Not like a crazy person who pretends to understand the legal ins and outs of this issue, but like a level-headed human who respectfully wants your voice heard.

Lastly, Support Dota's origins. Dota was a custom mini-game that the players and viewers made into what it is today. Dota is nothing without all of us - they don't get to tell us how and where we watch a game. ESL legally owns the casting and content, but Valve owns the games that you can view in their own client, and they permit streaming on Twitch. ESL does not own the pro players. ESL does not own Dota. Dota is so special because it grew out of the passion of players and fans, and we need to carry that legacy forward to keep the integrity of the game and community.

Thank you for reading. And if any pro players read this, please consider speaking out. I know a lot of you are in a tournament right now and probably don't want to rock the boat, but you're probably here because you love Dota like the rest of us, and your word would mean a lot.

<3 and Dota to all. I look forward to seeing all of you toxic bastards in my twitch chat tonight.

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We create an produce the content of the tournament...

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 06:45 AM PST

ＷＥ ＣＲＥＡＴＥ ＡＮＤ ＰＲＯＤＵＣＥ ＴＨＥ ＣＯＮＴＥＮＴ ＯＦ ＴＨＥ ＴＯＵＲＮＡＭＥＮＴ, ＷＥ ＤＯ ＨＡＶＥ ＬＥＧＡＬ ＡＧＲＥＥＭＥＮＴ ＷＩＴＨ ＶＡＬＶＥ ＦＯＲ ＴＨＯＳＥ ＴＯＵＲＮＡＭＥＮＴＳ, ＡＮＤ ＷＥ ＨＡＤ ＳＴＲＥＡＭＳ ＴＡＫＥＮ ＤＯＷＮ ＷＨＩＣＨ ＶＩＯＬＡＴＥＤ Ａ ＰＯＬＩＣＹ ＬＡＩＤ ＯＵＴ ＡＮＤ ＰＵＢＬＩＣＡＬＹ ＣＯＭＭＵＮＩＣＡＴＥＤ. ＴＨＩＳ ＨＡＰＰＥＮＳ ＡＴ ＡＬＬ ＯＦ ＯＵＲ ＯＴＨＥＲ ＥＶＥＮＴＳ ＡＳ ＷＥＬＬ.

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ESL trying hard to meme LuL

Posted: 24 Jan 2018 09:12 PM PST

A Noticeable Difference between Galaxy Battles and ESL Genting

Posted: 24 Jan 2018 06:35 PM PST

The fact that Galaxy Battle came out and apoligised, did a Q&A on Reddit and didn't try to hide their problems, which in turn made the fans grateful for their honesty and some people actually appreciate it and therefore want them to host other events and give them other chances. ESL have literally just put their fingers in their ears and screamed "la la la" to anything that is remotely against them. This had led fans to hate them more than anything has ever been hated since I joined this subreddit or even since I joined Reddit as a whole. I hope they realise what a stupid PR move they've made and try and attempt to salvage this situation

submitted by /u/KappaLion
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MLPdota is back!

Posted: 24 Jan 2018 11:32 PM PST

They're back online and casting Secret vs VP.

https://www.twitch.tv/mlpdota

submitted by /u/swaeday
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MLP bullied by ESL into submission. Won't be back until after Genting.

Posted: 24 Jan 2018 04:53 PM PST

Majors

Posted: 25 Jan 2018 05:41 AM PST

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