Unlabelled Super Smash Bros - Daily Discussion Thread 04/04/17

4/05/2017 12:04:00 pm
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Super Smash Bros - Daily Discussion Thread 04/04/17

Daily Discussion Thread 04/04/17

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 12:15 AM PDT

Welcome to the Daily Discussion Thread series on /r/smashbros! Inspired by /r/SSBM and /r/hiphopheads's DDTs, you can post here:

  • General questions about Smash

  • General discussion (tentatively allowing for some off-topic discussion)

  • "Light" content that might not have been allowed as its own post (please keep it about Smash)

Other guidelines:

  • Be good to one another.

  • While DDT can be lax, please abide by our general rules. No linking to illegal/pirated stuff, no flaming, game debates, etc.

  • Please keep your meme spam contained to the sticky comment provided below.

If you have any suggestions about future DDTs or anything else subreddit related, please send them our way! Thanks in advance!

Also, if you want to chat with other /r/smashbros users you can do so via our Discord channel.

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Evo 2017 Planning Megathread

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 10:48 AM PDT

crossposted on /r/StreetFighter, too

Hey guys,

Responding all the honest feedback we got from you last year is a major focus for us in Evo 2017. We've been hard at work planning for this year's event, and I have some preliminary decisions that I'd like to hear your opinions on. If you think I've missed anything or want to provide feedback on the plan, we're more than happy to discuss in this thread

Without further ado, here are some of the biggest issues we heard about last year:

  • Lots of you felt we did not devote enough resources to your game of choice (setups, staging, seating, etc), often having to share too much with other games.

  • The room was too crowded, especially in the tournament section. It was at times difficult to watch people competing in the tournament.

  • Friday and Saturday Finals did not have the same level of spectacle as 2015. Where'd the big screen go?

Many of the problems last year were caused by a lack of space. We more than doubled the size of the tournament hall from Evo 2015, but much higher than anticipated turnout by Smash 4 and Street Fighter V had us scrambling. We also failed to meet our standards for a quality viewing experience at the event. It sucks when you know you're game is being played, but it's not being shown on the big screen, or there's no room to crowd around one of the tournament stations to check it out. We want to fix all this for 2017.

This year we're doubling the size of the tournament hall again, from 125k to 277k square feet. We'll use the extra space to make sure that every single game has a dedicated viewing area complete with seating, staging, and a big screen that is 100% devoted to your game. Here's a draft version of what we're planning. It is very rough at this point, but should give you a good idea of the lines we're thinking on.

We put a picture of an Escalade in that little highlighted area for scale. For comparison, the entire tournament area for Evo 2016 will fit in just the areas designated for just Games 1, 2 and 3 for 2017.

As you can see, we're placing a big screen, stage, and dedicated seating area in close proximity to all running tournaments. If your game is currently being played, it will always be on a big screen near where the tournament is being held. We hope having more dedicated seating will channel more people away from the tournament stations, making that area feel much less cramped for competitors. We are also dramatically increasing our investment in staging and lighting to make Friday and Saturday Finals feel special. The 80-foot main stage screen from Evo 2014 and 2015 will be returning for Evo 2017 Friday and Saturday, along with much more seating for spectators for those Finals.

We also heard you on the following issues:

  • Some felt their game's tournament brackets were improperly generated and/or seeded

  • Some tournaments ran behind schedule. Some WAY behind schedule.

  • Some players had to play late into the night, then again the next morning with very little rest.

  • It took much too long for tournament results to be reflected online.

Last year's brackets and seeding were done with Evo's legacy tournament software, which is frankly obsolete given the advent of smash.gg. Smash.gg is quickly becoming the go-to tournament stack for the FGC, Rocket League, and a bunch of other games. It's totally awesome, and we're going to transition off our legacy software entirely over to smash.gg this year.

In 2016, we relied on a group of community elders for each game to seed the top top 16 or 32 competitors. This year, we'll use smash.gg's built in seeding support to pull from community endorsed global ranking ladders (e.g. Panda Global Rankings for Smash 4, Curleh Rank for Marvel, etc.). Furthermore, we'll work with each community individually to determine how deeply they would like brackets seeded instead of stopping at top 32.

We'll also use smash.gg's super-flexible bracket generator to help improve the competitor experience. For example, we've noticed some other tournaments have been creating larger pools and graduating more than 2 players in the first round. That's a great idea to make the tournament run faster and reduce the chance of double jeopardy in the 1st round. We plan to adopt a similar system. We also want to make sure we schedule such that players get at least 12 hours between their last match on Friday and their first match on Saturday though a combination of better scheduling and getting more stations for each game.

Finally, we're growing our TO staff to make sure every game has TO's familiar with their scene. The smash.gg support team will be on-site at the event as well to help make sure everything goes smoothly and results make their way online as quickly as possible. Shout outs to the smash.gg team: you're doing great things for the FGC and we really appreciate your support this year!

Finally, a lot of people let us know about:

  • The walk from the Westgate to the LVCC was super oppressive in the Vegas heat.

  • The registration line was really long.

This year we've moved the tournament hall to the Mandalay Bay Convention Center. If you're staying at the Mandalay Bay, you'll have a short, air-conditioned walk from your room to the tournament halls on Friday and Saturday and the event finals in the arena on Sunday. We've also partnered with smash.gg to handle event registration, which offers to option of having your tournament credentials (and optional swag!) mailed to you in advance of the event, so you can skip the onsite registration line. These should dramatically cut down on the walking and waiting people do at the event.

Hopefully this answers some of your questions of what you can expect for this year. It's still early in the planning process, but I wanted to pop in and let you guys know what we've been up to since Evo 2016. We're happy to answer any additional questions you might have or take feedback on this direction in the comments, below.

Thanks!

Ponder and the EVO Staff.

TLDR: Bigger room for Fri / Sat. 7 big screens with MUCH more seating. Return of the mammoth 80 foot screen for Fri / Sat finals. smash.gg for good. Post feedback here pls. Hope to see you there!

submitted by /u/Ponder
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Locus confirmed for Nairo saga!!

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 03:50 PM PDT

Someone just donated $256 to his stream to finish up funding.

THIS IS REALLY HYPE (I wish I could clip his pop off)

submitted by /u/Lucatora
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If you ever wondered how Melee looked on an old karaoke machine, well you're in luck.

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 05:43 PM PDT

Behold, Melee on some jank old Karaoke Machine

For context, I have no room for a CRT currently, but do infact, have enough room for a karaoke machine.

Everything is in black and white but the sound makes up for it because it is fucking boomin boys. This thing doesnt have any color at all but this is what im going to have to live with for now.

I'm not quite sure if its exactly a CRT inside or not but it feels nice to play on so this is gonna be my main practice setup from now on.

submitted by /u/Litoman7
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Teams highlight exemplifying Marth's kill potential in teams - Video by PewPewU

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 02:09 PM PDT

List of Japanese going to EVO 2017

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 07:37 PM PDT

List

It's a lot.

While I'm at it, here's Japan's upcoming events

Calendar

submitted by /u/ESM_juddy96
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Help Smash Bros Italia to save his national tournament Icarus III!

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 01:23 PM PDT

https://twitter.com/SmashBrosItalia/status/849343624030679041

Please Smash community, save the Icarus. Italy needs iStudying for its nationals, help us delay Greninja Saga!

submitted by /u/DEX_CAPSLOCK
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SoCal Smash 4 April 2017 PR is out!

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 12:42 PM PDT

Why Jiggs was the most balanced in 64, and not otherwise.

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 07:48 AM PDT

This is personal opinion. If you disagree, please let me know what you think.

This mostly applies to SSB64, but I also talk about the later games.

Jigglypuff is pretty unbalanced in Melee, Brawl, Project M, and SSB4, on both ends of the spectrum.

But Jigglypuff is very well-balanced in 64. I might even say that it is the most balanced character in the cast.

Note: Jigglypuff's gender is never directly referred to, and since its gender ratio is 75% female to 25% male, the gender is unknown, and the correct pronoun is "it".

What does "Balanced" mean?

"Balanced" can mean two different things:

  1. A balanced character may be one with no particular strengths or weaknesses. Mario is an example of this.
  2. A balanced character could also have its strengths counterbalanced by its weaknesses. Such as Jigglypuff.

Jigglypuff, the Balloon Pokémon, is an example of the latter.

It is a prime example of a character of extremes. Jigglypuff has a delicate balance that, unfortunately, didn't stay in the later games.

Jigglypuff's balancing pros and cons in 64

This is a long one. Hopefully, this table works.

Pros Cons
Jigglypuff has five midair jumps. Most characters only have one. Each jump gives half the velocity of the previous, with the last one doing nothing but stalling it for a second.
Jigglypuff has the second best horizontal recovery, behind Pikachu. If Jigglypuff is knocked back, it is sure to come back. Vertical recovery? What is that? Jigglypuff is tied for worst vertical recovery with DK.
Jigglypuff is one of the best horizontal edgeguarders, and it is difficult to gimp for horizontal edgeguarders. Jigglypuff is one of the worst vertical edgeguarders, and it is trivial to gimp for vertical edgeguarders.
Jigglypuff's full hop can up air opponents on the top platform of Dream Land, and its short hop can up air opponents on the lower ones. They aren't very useful for much else.
With the fourth best air speed, a floaty falling speed, a great juggling game, and combos galore, Jigglypuff has an S-tier air game. With the second slowest dash speed, pathetic tilts (aside from up tilt, but it requires opponents to be in the air to be useful), only one good smash attack, and an awful grab range, it has the worst ground game by a large margin.
Jigglypuff is a very powerful glass cannon. Jigglypuff is a very powerful glass cannon.
Jigglypuff used Close Combat! It's super effective! – Jigglypuff is a master at close up combos in the air. Jigglypuff's low knockback kicks can combo into each other, leading to 0-deaths. Jigglypuff's defense fell! Jigglypuff's Special Defense fell! – Jigglypuff is very vulnerable when close up, and doesn't have a lot of range (no Melee bair 4 u). It also lacks a projectile. Additionally, Jigglypuff uses Struggle against disjointed hitboxes and Link's sword.
Jigglypuff is the best juggler tied with Fox, as its jumps allow multiple up airs without having to touch the ground. Jigglypuff is incredibly vulnerable to opponents from below; its dair doesn't have much priority, and its floatiness causes Jigglypuff to get camped by the likes of Kirby, Fox, Ness, and Link.
Jigglypuff used Rest! It's super effective! A critical hit! The opposing Fox fainted! – Rest is a powerful KO move that comes out on frame 1 and kills at around 60%. It isn't as unfair as Melee's 25%, and anything is better than Brawl and SSB4's 999% KO percentage. :P Also, it has a few frames of invincibility. Jigglypuff used Rest! Jigglypuff's attack missed! Jigglypuff went to sleep! The opposing Fox used Up smash! It's super effective! Jigglypuff fainted! – Rest has a tiny hitbox that only lasts a single frame; and the end lag is the longest in the game by far. A whiffed Rest is a dead Puff. Jigglypuff can't even ledge cancel it.
Jigglypuff has the reliable Z-canceled dair -> Rest combo which can 0-death when combined with up tilts. This requires Jigglypuff to be above its opponent, and when improperly timed or spaced, it is very punishable.
Jigglypuff has one of the strongest back throws in the game. It is also a semispike! Jigglypuff's grab range is terrible, and Jigglypuff has to be on the ground.
Jigglypuff's forward throw (its up throw in later games) can be a combo starter on non-floaties and a chaingrab on Fox and Falcon. See above.
Jigglypuff has the strongest up smash in the game, tied with the Mario Bros. Its range is pretty bad, and the late hit is very punishable. And it needs to be on the ground.
Jigglypuff has many 0-death combos with the combinations from its aerial combos, plentiful kill moves, and great edgeguarding skills. Similar to Marth in Melee (but not as extreme), Jigglypuff needs hard reads to KO at high percentages, as its aerials send the opponents too far to follow up.
Jigglypuff has the largest shield in the game, twice the radius of its body. If its shield pops, so does Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff has the unique property of getting OHKO'd when its shield breaks.
Pound can be used both for horizontal recovery and to 2 hit most shields. It is slow, and the knockback (or lack thereof) at low percents is punishable.
Jigglypuff is the only character that can put its opponents to sleep! Hahahahaha… that move is terrible. 55% accuracy, and opponents mash out faster at higher percents.
Jigglypuff has the best Teleport in the game. This requires Jigglypuff to be in its run animation, and its dash animation, which it has to do first, is very slow.

The current tier list proves this point. Jigglypuff is dead center.

Additionally, Jigglypuff may not have (m)any advantageous matchups, but it is only hard countered by Fox, and soft countered by Luigi and DK. Nearly everything else is pretty much 50-50 ever since Hyrule was banned. This includes Pikachu.

Basically, these matchups are essentially the first definition of balanced, not many good matchups, but not many bad matchups.

That is why I believe that Jigglypuff is the most balanced character in 64, and one of the most balanced characters of the series.

Why it was S tier in Melee and trash in later games

Unfortunately, that perfect balance was lost in Melee and later, as Melee gave it too many advantages giving it a high tier spot of 5/26, and Brawl (36/38), SSB4 (dead last), and PM (37/41) gave it too many disadvantages.

Considering how Jigglypuff is at the extremes of the tier lists, it proves how quickly and easily this balance can be thrown off. If this balance could ever be restored, Jigglypuff has the capability of being a solid mid-tier. But until then, Jigglypuff will be stuck on one end or another.

In Melee:

  • Rest became too powerful
  • Its stupidly disjointed bair got rid of the "pitiful range" weakness
  • Its new vertical recovery got rid of great horizontal recovery, terrible vertical recovery balance,
  • It suddenly had a huge advantage in recovery over the rest of the cast.
  • Jigglypuff now has unmatched air speed.

In Brawl, Jigglypuff was mainly screwed over by the mechanics. An entire list is needed to tell what is wrong:

  • Jigglypuff is slower in the air.
  • Since everyone was floaty in Brawl and had amazing recoveries across the board, its gimping potential was removed.
  • The hitstun canceling and free air dodges allowed opponents to simply avoid its approach and followups
  • With even lower gravity, Jigglypuff felt like it was full of helium and had no vertical approach.
  • In addition, the changes in knockback acted as a double nerf for Rest:
    • Rest sent opponents vertically now.
    • Since vertical knockback now accounts for gravity, Rest can't KO fastfallers at all.
    • Oh, and this mechanic also makes Jigglypuff die even earlier.
  • Brawl favored defensive play, and Jigglypuff's explosive shield and light weight made it difficult to deal with.

In Project M, even though Jigglypuff was "reverted to Melee", everyone else had their recovery buffed, and while other characters got many new tools and gimmicks, Jigglypuff didn't get any.

In SSB4, Jigglypuff has the same issues as Brawl, but while it got some buffs…

  • The more offensive playstyle allowed Jigglypuff to approach.
  • Increased gravity helps its vertical approach
  • Some hitboxes were improved, and Jigglypuff has true Rest setups again.
  • The removal of hitstun canceling means that Jigglypuff can follow up again.
  • Rest now has an actual chance of killing.

…it got some nerfs:

  • The removal of edgehogging made it more difficult for Jigglypuff to edgeguard.
  • Jigglypuff is outrecovered by Villager. and Duck Hunt. [!]
  • Shields are easier to break.
  • Blast KOs mean that Jigglypuff can be punished for a successful Rest kill.
  • Rising Pound is now useless for recovery.

A side note: I am also a proud supporter of #BuffPuff.

submitted by /u/Easy_as_Pi314
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The Scar and Toph Show: SEASON 3 EPISODE 14 - The Legend of East Coast Scar (Ft. Mogwai and GOTM)

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 05:04 PM PDT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uehtLzzXJ_8

SUP WITH IT

I hope you're ready, because we cover a lot in this show. Having Mogwai and GOTM hang out with us means that we get to see a side of Scar that has long been gone.

First, I'd like to introduce our guests. Both of these guys are long-time friends of Scar, going all the way back to the Pennsylvania days. Mogwai is a long time community member, whom you may remember hearing on commentary during M2K vs Shiz, and GOTM is another old school smasher that you can find in the credits of a little video called I Killed Mufasa 2 :3

When the wine comes out, that's when you know that you're in for a good show. This is one of the most story-filled episodes that we've done. We go on a journey through a past filled with Jägerbombs, adventures at Six Flags, old school road trips, tournament accomplishments, and the shenanigans of a modern day genius known as Bama. If there's something you want to know about what East Coast Scar was like, you'll be able to find it here. All I have to say is that Melee has had some degen days in the past LOL

As always, thank you for watching! We're glad to have your support. If you want to keep up with the show, the best thing you can do is give it a follow on Twitter (https://twitter.com/ScarTophShow). You can even take your A E S T H E T I C to a new level by picking up one of our new vaporwave shirts, made in collaboration with Justin Wharton (https://twitter.com/justwharton)!

If you have any feedback, or if you just want to share your thoughts, please feel free to let us know here or to tweet at the show. We should be back in two weeks, but in the meantime you can catch me on the mic at the EC vs WC invitational this weekend!

See you later :3

submitted by /u/toph_bbq
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Smash Sisters Crew Battle at Civil War!

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 01:55 PM PDT

VGBC presents Royal Flush featuring Melee and Smash 4 and $10,000 pot bonus.

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 06:42 PM PDT

CLG_PewPewU exemplifies Marth's kill potential in teams

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 01:34 PM PDT

Pretty sure my friend and I just broke the Home Run Contest world record on Smash 4

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 05:32 PM PDT

Smashadelphia major event features a live concert by Crush 40, $1000 pot bonus for PM/S4, and more

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 03:54 PM PDT

Hey everyone, wanted to let you all know of a big event I've been working on a while that I just revealed today. Bringing back the Smashadelphia event series with a new annual major a part of the TooManyGames gaming convention right outside of Philadelphia on June 23-25.

The biggest thing to set this apart from other events? A live concert Crush 40, the group behind many of the popular tracks from Sonic games around the Dreamcast era. Songs by them like Live and Learn, Open Your Heart, and Seven Rings in Hand are in Smash 4 and Brawl.

We've also currently got a $1,000 pot bonus for Smash 4 and Project M, and events for Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl as well.

Registration goes up next week, and as far as venue goes - all you have to do is get into TooManyGames. Pay the price to attend online in advance or in person, or get individual day passes if you only want to go for certain games on certain days. Registration for the Smash events will start next week on smashgg.

I'll also be revealing more announcements over time, such as invited guests and other new features for the event!

Check it out on Facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/events/823258924494390/
Throw this a retweet here to help support the event! https://twitter.com/CLASHTournament/status/849364833061437442

submitted by /u/ChiboSempai
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Nebulous Presents: The Tristate Circuit, a summer long tournament series & invitational! [x-post r/ssbm]

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 07:53 AM PDT

Greetings r/smashbros, if you don't know me, I'm BirdUp from Nebulous in New York City. We're super proud to announce the first ever Melee circuit for the Tristate area!

This summer we'll be working with partnered events in New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut to run a point based league!

HOW IT WORKS

Tournaments who partner with The Tristate Circuit will award points to their top finishers based on the number of entrants at the event. The more entrants, the more points awarded!

At the end of the season the Top 3 players from each of the 4 regions (New York State, New York City, New Jersey, and Connecticut) will auto qualify for our 16 man invitational in August.

We'll round out the final 4 spots with players who have earned the highest point totals over the course of the season, this time with no regional restrictions.

The invitational is currently slated to take place and the Nebulous venue, however we are selling merchandise and perks to instead host a three day Summit style invitational at a rustic home in Massachusetts. We're already 44% to our goal just one day into fundraising, so be on the winning team and help out!

LEARN MORE ABOUT THE CIRCUIT

Learn more about the circuit: Here!

Visit our shop: Here!

Check out our announcement video: Here!

EARN YOUR FIRST QUALIFYING POINT AT...

APOLLO IV (pre-reg only)

GHOST PEPPER SMASH

FRAME TRAP HOUSE 13

KING OF THE JUNGLE VI

TOing an event in NY/NJ/CT and want to have it be part of the circuit? Contact @EmilyWaves on Twitter!

submitted by /u/BirdUp_SSBM
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What's the best joke only smash players will get?

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 03:30 PM PDT

Zero will be attending LetsGo

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 08:02 AM PDT

The Japanese player RON would want to go to EVO, but money's an issue. What can we do?

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 09:04 PM PDT

https://twitter.com/ron0510/status/849472088889053185 I really wanna see him here, see if we can get a donation fund?

submitted by /u/Epicallytossed
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The Smash 4 Legend - ANTi

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 10:42 AM PDT

Prince: Level 3 Link Combo

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 07:32 AM PDT

Never let your guard down.

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 08:22 PM PDT

I made a survey for non-professional Melee players

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 02:04 PM PDT

What character have you dropped because they weren't good enough? What was the tipping point for you?

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 05:00 AM PDT

A little video I put together with a bunch of cool PM Wario highlights and funny moments from my stream

Posted: 04 Apr 2017 12:31 PM PDT

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