Unlabelled Learn Dota 2 - Patch 7.12 Discussion Thread

3/30/2018 10:18:00 am
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Learn Dota 2 - Patch 7.12 Discussion Thread

Patch 7.12 Discussion Thread

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 08:12 AM PDT

Best high level supports to watch?

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 06:20 PM PDT

What are the best folks to watch for Pos 5 support gameplay (min 5k+)? Even better if they do YT.

submitted by /u/Hannibal_Spectre
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Dota is not a team game

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 01:27 AM PDT

Since i had to speak about this yet so many times here on r/learndota2 i might as well make one big post explaining why.

I'll put the TL;DR here:

While in low mmr you might get cooperation, you do not have coordination

What a lot of people don't understand is what true teamplay is, even on my own 5-6k accounts which i rarely play on these days, i get a lot of flamers. People that you'd actually consider anti-team, but truth be told, those players have equal teamplay to the polite players.

Because what a lot of people don't understand is teamplay isn't a mood, rather it's a skill that comes out of soloplay.

what literally 99% of the playerbase will not understand is that dota after 5k is not the same game as dota before 5k. It is actually a completely different game with completely different rules, not only that the gameplay is faster, but the way the game flows from the beginning to the end is completely different. All of this is because of teamplay and competence.

This is basically how learning dota 2 should look like for some new player.

  1. at first he learns his own thing, his role, his hero, his job in general.
  2. now he starts increasing in mmr and gets to a higher level, now he's at a point where others also have plans like him, so he starts learning to expect other people's plans and counter play against them
  3. now he again increases his mmr but he's at a point where his opponents expect him to do something, he now can start using their expectations against them to trick them.
  4. And now he's at the final stage, this method has proven itself impossible to be continued, so his next step is to start using his expectations not only on his opponents BUT ALSO HIS TEAMMATES.

And this is where the final part 4 goes into, You are at a point where are no gaps between your execution of your hero vs the execution of their hero to be abused, Now you realize 1 simple thing

why have 1 super strong hero when you can use 2 weaker heroes.

And this is what actual teamplay is, a mutual expected coordination.

The way i'd like to put it is if i were playing SK in some 6-7k avg game and i were to ping the enemy carry, i will know that my doom will start walking towards that enemy carry at the same time as i do and he'll use his doom and run at him.

But the thing is, my doom also expects me to go there with him and to use my burrow and epicenter to deal the damage while the enemy carry is DOOMED

We do not have to explain our plans to each other, we both mutually expect that the other person will engage from the proper angle, at the proper time, in the proper spell casting order, on the proper target.

And this is all because both me and doom have went trough those stages and we not only know what ourselves can and should do, but we know what other has to do as well.

So regardless if our doom is flaming the everliving shit out of our team or is he singing the world peace anthem, he will go in and cast doom once i burrowstrike.

This is basically how gamesense works, now i am making a guide with dotafire on how to artificially create a high mmr player's gamesense myself, as gamesense really is just experience. But i didn't want to wait for 5 years of experience, so i devised a method to do it all in 1 week.

exception to someone actually trying to intentionally go buy a shadow amulet and sit afk to let the enemy win, that happens both in 1k and 10k.

Obviously, teamplay in 5-6k is not perfect, but it is at a point where it's an actual reliable tactic which will gain you mmr.

And now let's look at the other end of the spectrum, some low 1-3k mmr game where the players don't know what they should be doing themselves. Now obviously, by now you should have realized that such teamplay will not happen because of the lack of solo skill of either himself or his teammates.

And this is where the biggest trap of all will happen, in my opinion this is the 1# reason why people either take thousands of matches to move out of 1-3k or get stuck there forever, unlike how i did it in about 1.5k matches from high 1k to low 5k.

Imagine you were trying to make the same said play as i described of a SK and Doom ganking the enemy Carry.

Now, there's quite a few things that can happen,regardless if you messed up or succeeded.

You can succeed because it was the correct thing to do and you executed properly,

or you can fail because you messed up or was the wrong thing to do.

The problem with that comes to re-evaluating the success/fail of that play later on, because while you can fix some issue like ''oh i burrowed too early or too late'' you can't fix the issue that your doom ran in too early or too late.

So then you are not only incapable of evaluating if that play was doable or not, but also why.

Because if you weren't relying on your teammates to do anything, your calculations for evaluating that choice would be simple

''hey im SK i have lvl 10 and a blink, i do X amount of damage with my combo, who has <X HP"

Then you have a list of a couple of players, then it's simply to say ''ok i went to kill their carry, but what did that bring me''

if you didn't get a tower or stop him from farming as he could simply re-spawn and keep going. Then you simply could've said, ok instead of killing their safelaner i should've gone mid and killed that guy as i could've gotten his tower afterwards.

So back when i was 1k i realized that both me and my teammates are terrible at the game, but it's impossible for me to evaluate my own skill if there's uncontrollable variance, aka my teammates.

So that play that was a proper play in 6k mmr of doom and i going to kill the enemy carry could fail in low mmr.

And here comes that thing that i said is the 1# reson of keeping people low mmr forever

You learn the game wrong

You try to make a proper play but you fail, you try to do the wrong thing but it succeeds.

Now you can do the wrong thing and it fails and you can do the right thing and it works

But all of that gets mixed up like a giant soup of wrong and correct gameplay.

And the more the correct plays fail the more you'll make wrong assessments

so you fail that SK + DOOM gank and you now subconsciously think that SK and doom can't kill some carry.

Or you lose a 2-3lane against like drow + huskar lane, and now you think huskar + drow lane is actually good and unstoppable.

Very very small things pile up until you're at the point where you will be incapable of moving forward in mmr, as for whatever correct thing you learn - you will also learn something wrong.

If you were a solo player then re-assessing these things will be as simple as analysing replays of higher players, and your own replays for comparison.

So go ahead, try to teamplay(rely on them) in low mmr all you want, you will be stuck there forever.

p.s i'll stream in like 1-2 hours, yesterday i did some memey ass builds and playstyles, today i'll do replay analysis and teaching.

http://twitch.tv/freecookiess

p.p.s Obviously, my explanation is not very clear, if i were to go in full detail the post would literally never end.

edit: majority of people won't be able to accept this either because of dunning-kruger or how they were brought up in ''the values of teamplay''. If you can't be like elsa and ''let it go'', then you are incapable of being actually good at dota.

So if you don't believe me, or don't want to believe me, go into your last replay and look at every single gank that was attempted, not just for yourself but for ALL PLAYERS ON BOTH TEAMS, and just assume that as long as you have 1-2 disables nearby every kill is possible, even if you think it isn't.

And just go ahead and count how many failed attempts at ganks/kills have happened.

edit2: as u/TheAdmiralYiSunShin likes to put it better

I don't know why low people (its only low people) think higher-ups state like there's some magical mmr barrier that once you pass it there's nothing but perfect teamwork and everybody is psychically connected. Nobody serious ever made that statement; it would be ridiculously false and provably so. What is being said is that there is a general range between 4.5k and 7k where people are slowly gaining this sort of sense at different speeds and while it varies from player to player, generalizations like this are unquestionably correct and should be used as the base for your method of improvement. No denier of these methods in history ever made it up high.

I didn't mean ''at 5001 mmr teamplay just magically happens'', but rather as a thing explained in the overall development of the player, at around this point that part of the development should be happening. It differs from person to person, but in general it stands true.

I know players who have 5-6k and have absolutely no clue of teamplay, there obviously will always be exceptions, but in general the majority will start learning and using this at around that point.

submitted by /u/circis1
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Questions about Spectre

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 03:48 PM PDT

Hi, so I want to gitgud at spectre, but I feel I never quite know what I want to buy on her.

Obviously you get radiance if you're getting babysat, and then maybe manta, diffusal, blademail, heart or whatever..

But what about the games where you DON'T get radiance? Urn, Vanguard, and Drums are all good items but how do I know if I should get all of these? I feel like getting all 3 is just too much unless you're actually fighting with your team all the time.

I don't think radiance is a must-have item on spectre in every game. If your team is getting destroyed then by the time you get it, you'll have lost the game. Also, how do you farm without radiance?

So, urn drums and vanguard. How do I make the choice between these items? How do I know if I should get one, two, or all three? (and if one or two, which two?)

What about RoA before urn boots? What about any of these other items before boots?

submitted by /u/Sivirona
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Learning core as a support main

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 05:46 PM PDT

Background: Legend 4, ~2k matches since 2015, ~53% win rate, mostly played support with occasional offlane

Main account: https://www.opendota.com/players/234114857

So apparently learning core (properly) will help me to play support better. My main questions are:

  • Should I make a new account to practice, or is unranked enough to begin with?

  • Which roles should I prioritise? Just pos 1, and maybe throw in some pos 3 (I'd rather not mid)?

  • What should I be paying attention to (i.e. what new concepts should I focus on, and what support behaviour should I ignore)?

submitted by /u/Etherkai
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Hi! I've made another high MMR Storm Spirit replay commentary, this time going over a non-traditional build.

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 05:11 PM PDT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBAQMKJYebE

Hey.

I am Divine 3 Storm Spirit currently climbing the top 30 rank in Opendota and Dotabuff.

My last Storm's video received a warm reception, so this time I return with something else -- Storm Spirit in a pick-off specialized build and playstyle, which should help newer Storm players climb the MMR ranks.

Please check it out and let me know how I can make those more interesting next time:)

submitted by /u/Captain_Iceblock
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Fun IO laning combos (Especially for Turbo Mode)?

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 04:34 PM PDT

I want to start playing IO with my friend. What are some good lane combos, preferably ones that are viable in turbo mode (my friend only will play turbo right now)

submitted by /u/EuphoricMaster
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How do I lane as a Vengful spirit

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 07:43 PM PDT

Hey guys. So I'm trying to learn to play vengful spirit support. I feel like I'm struggling a bit. Unlike most supports I play (Bane, Jakiro, warlock, Ogre Magi...) she doesn't have many good ways to harass the lane. Or maybe I'm playing her wrong. Idk. Btw I'm in the potato bracket so I'm usually laying against 2 carries or something stupid like that. I'm solo supporting and I feel that she's a bit xp depended. Is she even a good support or is she a better core? Teach me. How to play her.

submitted by /u/CallMeDJSenpai
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I want to thank everyone in this subreddit for helping me and teaching me how to play DotA for the past year. I have grinded from 400 mmr to 3k mmr. This is a huge milestone for me. Without you guys, this is only a dream. Thank you.

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 07:31 PM PDT

New Riki Ultimate Echo Sabre Discussion

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 11:37 AM PDT

So the new ulti procs Echo Sabre Slow on a singular every 0.4s. Is brown boots into Echo into Basher the new best itembuild and why?

submitted by /u/hionoe
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Can anyone analyze this game? What could I have done better to win this?

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 06:06 PM PDT

Learning Batrider. Need tips and tricks..

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 01:29 PM PDT

So I wanna get good at batrider..I know the basics of the hero. I think.

I am hoping to get some advice on how to win lanes with him (ive always heard casters and panelists in pro tournaments refer to him as a lane winner). At my MMR 3.9K its quite common to see trilanes. This is a stark contrast to how I see Batrider in pro games where he is almost always against a solo laner and is also dominating that lane. I find laning against a trilane as batrider quite difficult..and for a hero that really needs a blink dagger I also find that playing Batrider as a traditional offlaner against a trilane quite inefficient. Heroes that in my mind do very well even against trilanes are Brew and Tide...

I do the offlane pull whenever I can and it ofcourse helps immensely. But even then going up against a trilane is horrible as a batrider.

I am thinking starving the enemy supports of his regen and trading with the supports and using firefly on them is what I should be doing initially, in the case of trilanes..

He is also a really good jungler with few levels in firefly and I use that to farm sometimes. Maybe I should be doing that more ?

What advice would you give for me in this scenario ?

Also what should I be doing when my Lasso is on CD ? Also dont you think the CD of Lasso right now is incredibly high ? especially on first two levels..

Any other tips and tricks you may have about the hero I would really appreciate.

submitted by /u/__throwawayforever__
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We are The Chik' N Coop. A community of Dota 2 players willing to teach and play in house games. Anybody can join!

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 12:54 PM PDT

Hello /r/learningdota2,

We are The Chik'N Coop. A community of Dota 2 players who regularly play in house games and are willing to teach new players the game. We are recruiting new members at the moment, and we are inviting anybody to join. If you're interested, please join our discord below.

https://discord.gg/rUFa9tq

submitted by /u/TheChikNCoop
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Anyone have any support smurf accounts I can watch?

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 04:21 PM PDT

Trying to grind out of 3k by playing support. Would like to watch some rubick, silencer, sand king, or witch doctor. If you have a dota buff of a smurf I would appreciate it. :)

submitted by /u/Dotard22
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Dealing with Huskar (and Venomancer)

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 03:31 PM PDT

Hi all,

Just got out of a game as a CK against a huskar venomancer offlane (phoenix supp), and I got utterly destroyed, more so than any game in the past few weeks. I had died 6 times in the first 10 minutes. Every time I went near the wave I'd get attacked by both and would be too slowed to get under my tower and die.

Does anyone have any tips for dealing with this? If I was a jungler, I'd just leave the lane but I have no idea what to do in this situation. I tried swapping lanes but that didn't really work. If anyone could take a look at the first 10 minutes only and give me some advice that would be the best thing ever! The match ID is 3764498969.

Thanks for any help you can offer!

Edit: apparently it's the wrong ID. Will try fix tomorrow :(

submitted by /u/ODoggerino
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How to play against Terrorblade as Juggernaut?

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 09:06 AM PDT

Recently I've been getting getting counter picked as Jugg with Terrorblade...a lot. It makes sense. TB is great against single target damage carries like jugg and Sunder is great against spell immunity.

I'm looking for solutions when this counter pick happens. I've considered going Mjollnir, but it just feels so bad compared to BF in almost all circumstances. Is it better to rush some good early game items like Drums/SnY and just try to pressure him and end before he gets farmed? Try to out split push him? I don't really see a scenario where a Jugg beats an equally farmed TB because of his huge armor gain and focus on tank items (Manta, skadi etc.). Once he gets his 25 talent, it's basically hopeless to fight him without multiple stuns/silences.

Obviously, you hope your team has a lot of stuns/lockdown, but if you're short on that, and its up to the Jugg to beat the TB, what do you do?

submitted by /u/ReaganxSmash
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More tips on learning from replays?

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 01:51 PM PDT

What should I be watching out for in replays? Should I be focusing on my own matches or pro matches? What are some of the main things you try to learn or do when you watch replays?

One thing I plan to try when I get home is watch what a pro does, pause, guess what they'll do next, and keep watching to see if I got it right. I'll do this every 15 seconds. Do you have any other tips?

I'm 2100+ hours into DotA 2 (after 2-3 years) and still very subpar. I have ladder anxiety and I've therefore avoided ranked in the past. I'm getting over it and dipping my toes in more ranked games these days, but they still make me pretty nervous.

You should also know that I've casually watched 500+ pro and high MMR games, but I've rarely set out to analyze one particular thing. I usually just find myself marvelling at how well an expert Invoker or Morphling plays more than learning decision-making and such.

Here's my DotaBuff: https://www.dotabuff.com/players/100145393

submitted by /u/Empathy_Crisis
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Need Some Replays of Good Farming Habits to Coach a Friend

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 09:45 AM PDT

Hey guys, if anyone has any really good replays to show farming habits, preferably from professional or high level players, post a link or the match ID. Thanks a lot!

Also posted on /r/DotA2

submitted by /u/SaucyEdwin
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dark seer into semicarry?

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 12:42 PM PDT

is this even possible?

submitted by /u/Mademan1137
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Which safe lane carry is the strongest at around 20k net worth?

Posted: 28 Mar 2018 10:41 PM PDT

I know that a hero's strength/efficiency depends on a lot of factor, the obvious example being the draft, but in a vacuum which safe lane carry is the strongest in the 19k-21k net worth range?

submitted by /u/CI_Whitefish
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Advice: dying as an offlaner

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 10:43 AM PDT

Hi, I'm an offlane spammer. Within the past few patches early deaths have been punished less. I generally try to avoid deaths at all cost. Is this playstyle still a good one to have? An example is from a recent ranked game, as pango, against a trilane. I avoided dying as best I could. Was this the right thing to do?

The match is https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3806038091.

I got basically nothing from lane. But didn't die, which I saw as a positive. But I think I could have done more. Maybe an offlane pull. Any thoughts are welcome :)

submitted by /u/Zyguard7777777
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What should I do? How should I play?

Posted: 29 Mar 2018 04:16 AM PDT

Hello,

I've been playing this game on and off since Dota 1. Had lots of time off but tbh never really quit. It's always was fun for me, and I want to play some games. I don't have more time than around 10games / week. And I don't know how to utilize this short amount of time to have the most of the game. I mean should I play casual normal games with troll and "new meta" testers, or should I play ranked with ppl that would actually want to play the game? Because I would like to have people that just want to play as a team and try to win not trolls etc. Any good tips? Should I play only as one role? Or pick what is needed? Should I play normal games or ranked? Any advice would be nice. THANKS!

submitted by /u/Bartho_
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Has anyone else tried this off lane alch yet?

Posted: 28 Mar 2018 11:51 PM PDT

I tried it and I have to say, if you are in an mmr where support don't usually rotate well to other lanes it just hurts your team since it forces the enemy supports to not just sit bot and triggers your team super hard. Has anyone else tried this in sub 5k and found any success?

In my games I have either died in the offlane pull and just been rolled, or gotten a super early radiance but my team lost all the other lanes and we held out a while before getting destroyed. Because of this I decided that it is a high level strat since you team had to be able to deal with the result (ei, enemy safe lane gets 100% free farm and enemy support just hunt me all game or go to other lanes, also I'm pretty sure I'm going to be in low prio soon because of trying this).

If you don't know what I am talking about this guy (https://www.dotabuff.com/players/247874780) has pushed from 6k to 7k spamming it and videos like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsyWQW5OZB4 have been made talking about how good it is.

submitted by /u/Laxbro9285
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How to get over solo queue anxiety?

Posted: 28 Mar 2018 10:00 PM PDT

I can't seem to string together more than 2 games before feeling anxious about the lowest ranked players first picking carry/us losing the game in the pick phase.

submitted by /u/mr_skeng123
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